1/19 Show Discussion**SPOILERS**

[LKH]

I am not convinced the family liked the clutter so much as that, after Mom got attacked like that, they became invested in making her feel OK about herself. And Ellen, sweetie, if you really wanted to do some good, a gentler approach would have done more. The attack just put Donna on the defensive, and once someone is there, they are too busy defending the way they are to be open to change. I'm not sure how much Donna could change without some medical intervention, though, because I agree that this is probably a disorder.

And if that's true, then Ellen's shrew act was even more unacceptable. You don't rip into someone who has emphysema for coughing, and someone with this disorder is sick as well.

[barbh]

Well I'm disappointed that the Fontaines have learned nothing. How can you not want a second bathroom in a household of 6 people?

We have five in my house with one bathroom... The 2nd bathroom is in an addition that wasn't connected to the heating/cooling system, so in the summer it is boiling, and in the winter it's freezing. We use it for the litterbox mostly. Occasionally my husband uses it, but even he thinks it's uncomfortable for half the year.

It's just gotten easier to use the one bathroom. However, really, we're 4 as the fifth is a baby, and he doesn't take too much bathroom time, except for a bath.

[captrick]

We have five in my house with one bathroom... The 2nd bathroom is in an addition that wasn't connected to the heating/cooling system, so in the summer it is boiling, and in the winter it's freezing. We use it for the litterbox mostly. Occasionally my husband uses it, but even he thinks it's uncomfortable for half the year.

It's just gotten easier to use the one bathroom. However, really, we're 4 as the fifth is a baby, and he doesn't take too much bathroom time, except for a bath.

Why on earth would you add on a bathroom without connecting it to the heating/cooling?? Doesn't seem to be a worthwhile investment if it's not going to be done the way it should be....JMHO

[missymess]

As I signed in I just realized how "telling" my sign in name is :rolleyes
After the show there was a news story about the clutter family. Apparently this is the second show they've been on. They were on "My Life as a Sitcom", and they're applying to some other reality show. I'd say both families were dysfunctional. But push come to shove I think the clutter kids will be better off in the long run. At least they KNOW that they are loved, and the clutter is because mom has a problem. The whole reason for the mattress in the living room is to sit together for games and tv and be a family. Did you see that after Clohe and her dad got into it, that when he found her she was on that mattress in the living room?

[Lynne]

I was thinking that maybe Donna grew up in a situation where they were always running out of toilet paper & couldn't afford to buy more. Maybe she vowed that some day she would ALWAYS have toilet paper on hand. Anything's possible... My Mom grew up in the Depression & didn't always have enough food, so while she didn't go wild buying lots of food, she DID make sure the fridge & cupboard never looked empty.

Also, Donna took sensible advice (stock up while stuff is on sale) way too far. It's one thing to "stock up," it's another to have a shower filled with paper products!

[Unklescott]

I grew up with 3 brothers, one sister, a grandmother, a father and a mother sharing one bathroom. It wasn't difficult. Could I do it now? No way.

[lambikins]

That packrat mom makes me so sick that I am going to spend today cleaning out and throwing away all the junk and trash I don't need. I'm sick of it and I've had enough. I don't need to keep all this shit.

Here is a web site about cluttering:
http://www.clutterless.org/article/article.html

It says that there are things like ADD, OCD, depression, and other mental illnesses and psychological problems involved in being a clutterer. It says they are disorganized at work and are stressed out by structured work environments. That's the real reason she doesn't work, not the kids. Apparently being a packrat is associated with a whole LOT of serious disfunctional problems, not only having a cluttered home.

Oilpainter: I'm so grateful that you found that site on 'cluttering'; I've found it very healing in reference to reading about the chaos that I grew up in with my very sick mother. As the site states, the "cluttering" of today is the "alcoholism" of yesteryear, with the empathy and understanding that we give alcholics today....the clutterer needs that same love and forgiveness.

As lots of posters have mentioned, it's not that the kids "like" or enjoy the clutter; they just know that they don't have a solitary word that can be said against it. This is a quote, from the site, that is phrased in the words of a Clutterer: "One emotion we feel is anger at being called "messies, packrats or slobs." Learning to accept, understand and deal with our emotions is what Clutterless Recovery Groups are all about. We know that our clutter is not just stuff. We have it for a reason, and the reason is often based on deep-seated emotions."

You're right when you stated that Ellen can't work because of her mental illness, NOT the children's care.

For whatever good Ellen is giving her children, they aren't adults yet. As a kid I was forced to live with a 4' Bride Doll and her veil covering the dining room table and every sofa and chair covered in layers of dolls; as an adult, you avoid going to your parents home like the Black Plague. As a kid, it only took having my friends over once, and them asking "What's wrong with your Mom?", to keep them at bay. Ellen should get prepared for a very, very lonely life ahead of her. Those kids are going to run for the hills!

I'm wondering if her husband is an enabler; he mentioned very early in the show that "if I had known then what I know now..." I did not get to tape the show so I can't reference it, but it did NOT sound like he either would have married Ellen or allowed it to get this bad. Many times, when a person is excessively needy, they attract people who "need to be needed."

I can't say one way or another how I feel about Ellen and her outburst at the table; at least I don't remember really launching into the family when she lived there. And the kids and dad did appear to enjoy the new garage floor and finding the 5 year missing hockey sticks. I think if I were Ellen, my suspenders would have been *snapped*, too, if I had had to put up with her sickness and I knew that she was living in MY clean home!

[LemonDrop]

I know Ellen was rude but I can't say I wouldn't have done the same and I'm not known to be rude! The clutterbug has issues, and learned NOTHING. Ellen and Bill did- and Chloe will benefit.

Remember editing is everything. For all you know, the producers could have been prompting Ellen to be blunt. Weird editing in that last scene!

[barbh]

Why on earth would you add on a bathroom without connecting it to the heating/cooling?? Doesn't seem to be a worthwhile investment if it's not going to be done the way it should be....JMHO

You'd have to ask the woman who built the house. We're just renting. It's strange too, because we're not in a temperate part of the country, and the winters here can be quite cold. I think the addition was put on in the 60s or 70s, and told it was built so she could have a live-in health care worker, who wouldn't disturb her. (btw, we didn't rent from her either, but the couple who bought the house from her.

[nigel-bigel]

I've been lurking here for a couple of months, and I can't believe that it was this episode that finally brought me out of lurking. I say that because this episode really wasn't all that exciting, entertianment-wise.

I think we are all in agreement that Donna needs some serious couch time, so I have nothing to add on that. The only thing good I have to say for her is that her children aren't growing up feeling unwanted and unwelcome in thier own home. I can't say the same for Ellen.

When Ellen Laid down her rules for the Fontaines she said that there is waaayyy to much kid stuff everywhere (I agree) and that all of it is to be removed. All of it. "This is not going to look like a kids house any longer." I was crushed when the youngest boy was upset about that. He didn't understand why his presence wasn't allowed to be felt in his own house. I didn't understand it, either.

I have two children under 10. My house doesn't look like a playroom, but a place where a family lives. There aren't dollhouses in the living room - toys are kept in the girls rooms or the basement playroom. I have put breakables out of harms way and use durable and easy-care fabrics and furnishings. I have a few photos of my girls throughout the house, and their artwork is displayed on the refrigerator and in the laundry room. Mine is not a child-centered house, but a family-centered house that my girls know is their home as well.

While it is my house, they know it is their home. I don't think Chloe can say that.

Because I'm an interior designer, I tend to look a lot into how people shape their environments. I think Ellen's home raises as many questions about her as Donna's clutter raises about Donna.

I have never seen a more soul-less house in my life. It was totally devoid of personality or life. My first reaction was, "What is she hiding?". She and the huband revealed NOTHING of themselves in their house. All the furnishings were tasteful and expensive, but I've seen furniture showrooms - hell, even hotel rooms - with loads more character. There was no personal effects, sculpture, photographs, NOTHING. The one piece of artwork we were shown was probably purchased because they needed something large to cover an empty wall. Fortunatley for them it was hung over the staircase so they only have to see it when using the stairs.

Donna's issues are scattered out in the open for all to see, but Ellen and Bill are making quite an effort to hide something. I just have no idea what it is.

I also was very suprised at Ellen's behavior at the last scene. Where did all of that come from? Usually when one of the wives is angry at the "table talk" it is with the other wife's husband with whom she has clashed. But during this whole show Ellen had no contact with Donna - and Donna is such a mouse - what did Donna ever do to to bring out vicious Ellen? Ellen was horrible - she really wanted to hurt Donna badly.

The only reason I can think of is that Ellen was embarassed because she knew her negligence regarding Chloe was going to be exposed, and needed to point out Donna's problems to make her own look not-so-bad. If that's the case, it didn't work - not for me, at least.

There is so much more I could comment on regarding Ellen's relationship (or rather, lack of it) with Chloe, but I fell I've gone on too long already. With a mother that is as cold, distant, uninvolved and uninterested as Ellen is, it really is amazing that Chloe is as seemingly "normal" as she is.

However, I'm not holding my breath for the new-and-improved Ellen-Bill-Chloe relationship to last.