Just Desserts - 11/10 Show Discussion **Spoilers**

[Dragonlady]

While I agree that Zac should not have attempted to defend himself by throwing Morgan under the bus, I don't agree that the judging panel was the time and place for Morgan to make cracks about Zac acting like a little girl or singing show tunes, because I cannot imagine for one moment that Morgan didn't know that there was a homophobic subtext to choosing those particular words/phrases. Any kid on a playground knows how referring to a guy as a show tune singing little girl is interpreted by others. Morgan had every right to defend himself, but if he was objecting to being called unemotional, there were dozens of ways he could have defended himself without stooping to using those kinds of comments. Even if Zac started it, Morgan didn't have to finish it, so to speak. If he'd simply said that just because he doesn't react in a big way to wins doesn't mean he doesn't care just as much as someone who does, he'd have accomplished the same thing--except that he'd have looked more mature and made Zac look bad by comparison. Instead, he looked just as bad as Zac, if not worse, because it appeared that he'd offended Yigit as well, and Yigit hadn't said anything about him in front of the judges. Should Zac dish it out if he can't take it? No. But just because you have the opportunity to dish it back doesn't mean you should. If you can make your point in a less nasty fashion, you're going to look better, and be taken more seriously, than the person who decided to dish it in the first place. Morgan had that opportunity and he didn't take it, because, given his behavior in other instances on the show, he's pretty clearly as immature in his own way as he accused Zac of being (and which Zac may well be). Neither one of them covered themselves with glory in that argument, but Zac didn't use language that's commonly used to denigrate an entire group of people. Morgan didn't have to either, but he chose to anyway. If Zac was black instead of gay, and Morgan had mentioned that he didn't tap dance and go on about fried chicken constantly even if other people did, those comments would immediately be tagged as racist (and should be), regardless of whether Zac actually did tap dance around the apartment and gobble fried chicken by the bucket load. You should just try harder to think before you speak when you know you're in a very public forum, and Morgan didn't bother.

You and I are sort of in agreement here. I didn't have a problem with Morgan saying Zac acted like a little girl. He did and when you act a certain way, people are going to call you on it. I didn't remember him singing show tunes but I didn't like Morgan linking that to the little girl remark for the same reason you mentioned. Putting the two together was taking it to a differenct direction. If Morgan had said that Zac acts like a little girl and has stinky feet, I wouldn't have said a thing. Morgan had a nasty underhanded reason for putting the two together altho he had every right to defend his personal demeanor in winning. Zac was out of line in what he said. Period.

As for Yigit being offended, that's really stretching it a bit.
Why should Yigit be offended at something directed at Zac?
Because the two of them are both gay?? That's a bit much. If someone calls one heterosexual guy a horny dude, chasing women all the time ( to phrase it nicely), should another heterosexual feel offended?? They're two different individuals who share some similarities and some differences.
The problem was between Zac and Morgan and both behaved inappropriately.
Contrary to what Yigit thinks, not everything is about him.

[NYCJUDE]

I was pretty ok with Zak and his antics early on...he started getting really obnoxious with the "Team Diva" stuff. But this past episode was the clincher. His desperate attempt to show Morgan in a negative way was pathetic and uncalled for---his elimination was inevitable and the judges prob were thinking "just another reason to dump this jerk". Every time they showed that monstrosity of a cake (it was particularly disgusting at the end of the task, when he was cleaning up his table), my family and I just were like" oh God, is this guy GONE!". BTW, did anyone notice how ridiculous Zak's comments to the camera were? He actually felt his end product was better than Morgan's lmao

As for Morgan, while he is my fav to win (with dark horse Danielle pulling up the rear), his response to Zak was def a dig at Zak's homosexuality. He picked two classic gay references; show music and the phrase "like a little girl". Thing is, imo, Morgan generally is an intelligent, thoughtful guy and I am betting at the reunion show, he will cop to his verbal faux pas.

Finally..to all of you who say Danielle reminds you of Olive Oyl---that's because she is a prettier version of the actress Shelley Duvall, who played Olive in the film Popeye, with Robin Williams.

[Tilden]

As for Yigit being offended, that's really stretching it a bit. Why should Yigit be offended at something directed at Zac? Because the two of them are both gay?? That's a bit much. If someone calls one heterosexual guy a horny dude, chasing women all the time ( to phrase it nicely), should another heterosexual feel offended?? They're two different individuals who share some similarities and some differences. The problem was between Zac and Morgan and both behaved inappropriately. Contrary to what Yigit thinks, not everything is about him.[/QUOTE] I thought Yigit's body language and facial expression--which were very similar to Zac's at that point--indicated that he was offended. As for why he should be offended by comments directed at Zac, the little girl and show tune references are something he would certainly know have that homophobic subtext. As a gay man, he might simply have found them offensive, kind of like someone who is African-American might be offended by racist remark even if it wasn't thrown at him/her personally. Or the way a woman might be offended by sexist behavior even if she isn't the direct victim of it. I don't think Yigit was necessarily thinking the comment was about him personally but perhaps was thinking it was reflective of an attitude that there's a single, straight definition of masculinity and because Zac doesn't fit it, he's a show-tune singing little girl. Now, as I said, I don't think Zac behaved well at that judging either, but I think it was because he was desperately scrambling to find a way to stay on the show when he knew the work he turned in wasn't as good as what he'd shown himself to be capable of in the past. I don't think it's because he likes to sing show tunes or act childishly at times (except in that it's rather immature to try and shove someone else under the bus to save yourself instead of, say, admitting the cake wasn't his best work but that he'd shown consistently that he could do better and was passionate about being on the show--without mentioning Morgan's attitude at all). Both Zac and Morgan could have, and should have, behaved better at that judging panel, but Morgan indulged in gay-baiting, while Zac didn't generalize Morgan's behavior as being stereotypical of whatever groups Morgan might belong to--straight males, divorced dads etc. --by using language he knew Zac might well find offensive and that others would associate with a negative stereotype. Plus, Morgan had the perfect opportunity to change his on-air image by not rising to Zac's attack or by deflecting it with a mature defense of his behavior, and he blew it, particularly since it was pretty obvious that Zac's case looked much worse than his did. In fact, if the competition had been closer at that point, it might have tipped the scales in Zac's behavior if Morgan's behavior had offended the judges. If this had been a single bad moment for Morgan, it might have been perceived differently too (at least by me). I still would have thought, "Whoa, he should have thought before he opened his mouth and said that." But Morgan's attitude all season has been that you do whatever you have to in order to win, because it's a competition, and he's gotten increasingly paranoid about other people being out to get him. The fact that he was grabbing all the pastry bags on this week's episode and saying he wasn't letting anyone have any and deliberately trying to hog the mixer so Zac couldn't use it was ridiculous. If he's as confident as he claims in his abilities, he shouldn't have to stoop that low no matter what he believes other people are doing. I also wonder when people on reality shows behave like that if they've forgotten they're in a very public venue. Do they really want people who might hire them or eat in their restaurants to see them behaving like that consistently? And yes, that last comment could apply to Zac and some of his behavior too.

[Tilden]

Yikes. Sorry about the one long paragraph response--it was in separate paragraphs on my screen when I posted it.

[tinderbox]

Zac has bugged me from the first episode because he acts so darn childish. I'm glad he's gone. I realize this has nothing to do with his strengths as a pastery chef but it made a difference to me.

I'm rooting for either Yigit or Morgan and have for quite some time. Wish I could actually taste their stuff.

Oh, and ITA about Yigit and his partner looking like twins. Weird. It's like being in love with yourself. heh

[MFWalkoff]

Morgan's comments about showtunes and "little girls" were out of line because he meant them to be negative, because he finds those kinds of behavior to be negative. He is uncomfortable with men who don't think and act like him, and he chooses to insult and belittle others for being different rather than trying to be civil, or (heaven forbid) actually try to get to know people and learn something from them. He thinks himself superior as a man because of what he is (straight), which is wrong-headed. What he has achieved, and what he has in his life should make him content enough that he doesn't need to disparage others. In his quest to be overtly competitive, he makes it too personal,and in his own way it makes him "bitchy" and "petty", two traits that, ironically, he would assign to Zac.

[rfromp]

In the beginning I favored Zac to win but in the last few episodes it seemed he couldn't put together a coherent dish. He was just too all over the place and messy. He needed to be more focused. I believe he was a bit overwhelmed. Too bad. His remarks about Morgan at Judges Table were out of line, how did he expect Morgan to act? I liked Morgan's response about not rubbing it in their faces. Maybe that's what Zac wanted him to do so he could dislike him more. It seems Zac has maturity issues not only from his attitude towards Morgan but in his food as well. Yeet also seems to suffer from the same. He keeps saying how he can't shake his self-confidence issues and in my eyes he's falling apart. If Morgan doesn't win I'd be surprised. His technique and execution are near flawless, but he needs to as Johnny said not play it safe.

[estygal4]

Somewhere along the way in watching reality "competition" shows many of us (me included) have become more obsessed with personality over "winning" projects/talent

Putting personality aside....the fact is that Morgan's desserts have been good to great...he has won various challenges, he also has NOT had a real "mess up" result..

objectively he should win IMHO>> I also think that 'underdog" Danielle might win it all ...the "edit" sort of points to her

Zac's last cake looked like a royal mess..and yes, he was really out of line with trying to blame Morgan in front of the judges.

Much of what Morgan says is just comments...IMHO "Team Diva" were probably very annoying to have to work with and listen to. I don't think Morgan is a saint, but he is talented. This is a competition about desserts, not about personality anyhow

[Rembrant]

...he has won various challenges, he also has NOT had a real "mess up" result..

That's actually something that kinda ticks me off about this show, in that I'd like to know more on what goes about picking a challenge winner, even though I assume flavor is the main thing. Danielle won the recent cake one clearly because her cake tasted the best, but other times when someone wins a challenge, we don't know why, and sometimes I'm left scratching my head in confusion. Like, for example, Back in the penny candy Quickfire and the martini dessert challenge, Danielle and Erika seemingly won respectively because of their flavors, but we were never told about what other aspects clinched their victory, like I would also assume that Danielle's playful creativity in the penny candy and Erika's gorgeous presentation in the martini challenge had something to do with it, but it's never made clear.

And yeah, though Morgan has had justified wins, sometimes his victories leave me confused, because we're not told the exact reason he won over others. You can bet I was very annoyed during the ice cream sundae challenge, when Morgan won it by making ice cream sandwiches and some shake instead of an actual ice cream sundae.

[rfromp]

Much of what Morgan says is just comments...IMHO "Team Diva" were probably very annoying to have to work with and listen to. I don't think Morgan is a saint, but he is talented. This is a competition about desserts, not about personality anyhow

His comments I'm sure are annoying to have to not only work with but live with as well. Don't forget they live each other too. On the flip side, since Seth's departure there is no heterosexual male for him to interact with so I can understand his apparent frustration. It's just human nature. I think he showed much restraint and poise in the face of the childish butter and piping bag hoarding incidents. He always has a hug and a general amiable interaction with the others until they start with the immaturity. He clearly understands he's on television and he's keeping himself under control as to not make himself look foolish.