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Thread: 5/16 Finale Show Discussion *Spoilers*

  1. #291
    FORT Fanatic CuckoosNest's Avatar
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    Re: 5/16 Finale Show Discussion *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkhosis;3905480;
    Future players should learn to just not do anything at all, that way right from the get-go they'll have a better than average chance of winning.
    Not do anything? Isn't that exactly why Natalie (and to some extent Sandra) were so highly criticized? That they were do-nothings and rode coattails?

    So, your advice to win against Russell is: Let him do all the work, then hang himself and you win? To that end, you're just confirming the fact that Russell ISN'T a good player... which has been exactly my point all along.
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  2. #292
    FORT Fogey Longhornfan's Avatar
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    Re: 5/16 Finale Show Discussion *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by AZChristian;3905310;
    It's been great fun "watching" with all of you this season. Only two thoughts that I don't think I've seen already written in this thread:
    • Russell considered himself the "puppetmaster." Unfortunately, he wasn't playing with puppets.
    • If Russell wants to be part of a show where America has a vote, will we be seeing him next on "Dancing with the Stars"? (NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!)
    See you all in Nicaragua!
    I love your analogy using puppets. So true. These are PEOPLE not INANIMATE OBJECTS who go on Survivor. Russell just doesn't see the human element in the game of Survivor.

    Even Jeff tried his best last night to get Russell to see that there is a SOCIAL element to Survivor that he just doesn't get. Maybe Russell should stick to playing video games or maybe Battleship. He is definitely not a people person.

  3. #293
    Let's Goooooooo MikeGH's Avatar
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    Re: 5/16 Finale Show Discussion *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by jadewarlock;3905469;
    You need to read my post a few pages back to see exactly how Sandra won this game. IMHO you and others care to look at brashness instead of the little things that others do to win.
    I think the issue is people are watching this game for all sorts of different reasons. There are the people who could care less about strategy, and just care about the entertainment factor. Doesn't matter if the person played the worst game of all time, if they make for good TV they should win in those people's minds.

    Then you have the people who love the challenges, so they think if someone dominates the challenges they deserve to win. Those were the same people who voted for Ozzy over Yul in the Cook Islands finale before Yul eventually won.

    Then there's the strategy/social crowd, who look at someone like Sandra and see a full line of great moves she made over her past two seasons, and feel she majorly deserved to win, but because she wasn't strong or ever flashy per say she won't ever get the respect from the two groups I mentioned above.

    Me personally, I think once you get past the tribe vs. tribe part of this game and enter the individual game, challenges mean NOTHING. If you're a good enough social player, you can never win immunity and still make the end and win. If you're a strong player with a bad attitude, it doesn't matter how many fire buckets you can light or puzzles you can put together. If you're brawny with the social game of an infected wart and the strategy of a moron, you won't win, period. Hey Terry, heh.

    Cirie said it best when poor Ice Cream Scooper Erik went home. "My Mother always says, you may not be able to beat them with these (muscles), but you can always beat them with this (brains)". It's so true in this game. The challenges matter in the first half of the season. After that they're just time fillers IMO. A good social player, a good strategic player, and an intelligent person can go without winning challenges or playing 50 immunity idols in a season and still win it. It's not doing "nothing", it's called playing the game. But since so many people get enamored with people like Russell and their "remove a piece of gum off a windshield with a sledgehammer" style play, they find someone who actually plays the more important parts of the game inferior. Someone like a Sandra, or even like a Yul. I'll always favor those players because I think they really "get" what this game is about, and I love that.

  4. #294
    FORT Fogey ironcat's Avatar
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    Re: 5/16 Finale Show Discussion *Spoilers*

    The show and reunion were really illuminating as far as Russell's problem, what it takes to win Survivor as the game stands now, and why he never will.

    Russell's argument that Sandra had a failed strategy because all her attempts to take him out went for naught was incorrect; it was exactly this strategy that won her every hero's vote and ultimately the million. But since Russell has no understanding or appreciation for the end game, I'm not surprised that he can't comprehend this fact. He's like a golfer who can drive the ball the farthest and hit the green with his first shot every time, but can't sink a putt to save his life. It's a talent, but not enough to win a tournament as the rules stand. I also find it hysterical that now he wants to change the rules of the game to eliminate the part that he has no skills in, in order to win, rather than try to develop those skills and have a complete game. And of course it never occurs to him that if his competitors also didn't need to play with consideration of a jury, they too could be as ruthless and unrestricted in their style as he is with similar results.

    As others have stated, playing "under the radar" and "riding coattails" are two distinct strategies, not the same. Sandra is an expert at the UTR one for sure. If you are atrocious at the physical challenges, which she is, it is probably the only successful way to play this game.

    I also supect that they had Russell do 2 different PI's about the results of his first game, one speaking as if he'd won, and the other as if he'd lost, and then just edited in the one that applied. Jeff said in an interview that he thought Russell believed he had won in Samoa, and considering he only made a pretty cursory blanket "apology" at FTC to account for all his unsavory actions, I think he would have tried to do more (albeit badly) if he was absolutely sure they had cost him the earlier game.

    I was disappointed that Russell won the fan award, but with Rupert getting second place, ultimately not surprised. It shows that each of them still have enough rabid supporters to put them ahead of the pack, although if the vote was for the most detested player instead, I suspect these two would also finish in possibly the same order. It certainly is no indication that the majority of viewers like or respect Russell, or think he deserved to win. Also, I wonder if his supporters would still feel that way about him if they were out there with him, tired, starving and being mistreated and taunted by his "entertaining personality", instead of watching him from their comfy couch eating a bowl of popcorn (which is exactly why having the fans vote for the winner changes the game into something completely different).
    Last edited by ironcat; 05-17-2010 at 11:23 AM.

  5. #295
    FORT Fogey northernviewer's Avatar
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    Re: 5/16 Finale Show Discussion *Spoilers*

    The jurors vote was very predictable last night - it's human nature not to want to vote for the person who outsmarted you - but I have to say that JT disappointed me with his vote. I thought he just might have the guts to vote for the person that played him, that he would appreciate the game play for what it was..but alas, he let his pride get in the away and went with the lesser of the 3 evils, which was essentially what they all were. I don't think it mattered who that 3rd person was - whether it was Sandra, Jerry, Colby Rupert, Danielle, Coach etc etc - they would have been given the million, like I've said before, it was a default vote, and had nothing to do with respect for her game play, but their sour grapes that Russell and Parv outplayed them.
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  6. #296
    FORT Fogey Longhornfan's Avatar
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    Re: 5/16 Finale Show Discussion *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by KeepItReal;3905389;
    Why would you not need to be social when it comes to the jury? In this game if they don't like anything about a person they are voted out along the way. Don't like the way someone snores-they're out. Don't like the stories they tell-they're out. Don't like someone chopping wood or losing a chicken-OUT! The game is social all the way through. Randy was out because he didn't fit in. How many others in how many season were out because they were annoying, outspoken, old, immature, greedy, annoying, fat, lazy, ate green bananas, etc, etc, etc......

    Russell was so brilliant because he played a schoolyard bully game? Nope. Entertaining, yes, in some regards. The brilliant ones are the ones who let the big brute run around and take the hits. Is it great gameplay to not only vote someone out but to rub their nose in it like a puppy being housetrained? Maybe good to watch, but who will live through that and hand you a million dollars for the honor of being left to feel like total crap? Brilliant would have been Russell slinging perhaps a hundred less threats throughout the game.That wide eyed look telling everyone they will go home or do as I say does not get you a vote.

    If anyone has a gripe it's Parvati. She took the loss like a woman. She played a heck of a game, made her own moves, also told Russell to his face that she would not be bullied and she doesn't ride coattails. Problem is she played a game a little too close to a mad dog and woke up with a few of his fleas, so she lost. I liked the game she played this time, but I understand why she didn't get the votes. If you're going to keep a dog as a pet you need to be able to keep him a short leash. She couldn't, so therefore she couldn't claim to have control of the game. It's a catch 22.

    We can argue to the cows come home that Russell should have won, and last season maybe he should have. Maybe this season Parvarti should have. JT should have lost to Stephen. And so it goes....we see some things the jury doesn't see. We know some moves they have no idea of. We have an advantage being a viewer outside of the game that the jury does not have. We may have an edited version of events, but in a way their version is edited as well. They don't know everything. They didn't know how much Parvati stood up to Russell. They saw Sandra do it-and so she won. The show is not flawed. It is what it always was. It's like sitting on jury duty. You hear what is presented but sometimes not the entire backstory. Seems like Russell's backstory was all bully as well. Parvati's story had many layers.
    I loved the part where you wrote about Parvati playing "the game too close to a mad dog and woke up with a few of his fleas". No doubt that was one thing that could have cost her votes at he end.

    One thing is certain. Russell continued his villianous ways last night at the reunion show. He had to rub it in JT's face by bringing that letter encased in plastic to the show -a calculated move by the way - in an attempt to draw attention back on himself and to try to prove to everyone what a great player he was. I guess that that made Russell feel better. He was attempting to elevate himself above all the others.

    But, like I told my own 10-year old son when another boy was trying to bully him - both physically and verbally - some people have to tear down other people in order to feel better about themselves. It doesn't make it right. Even my 10-year old son understood that.

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    Re: 5/16 Finale Show Discussion *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkhosis;3905352;
    outplayed by who? russell never got outplayed by anyone, in either of the two seasons.

    he just failed to understand again how the jury votes. he should have won last season, but this season i'd say either him or parvati would have been a good winner.

    too bad making moves within the game pisses off the people that vote at the end. i would say sandra is an even poorer choice than natalie from last season, but i'm not sure if that's possible. perhaps we can just call it equally egregious.

    i wonder if they'll go back to the 2 person finale, instead of 3. i think that'd probably be wise. i know probst was pissed at how the final vote went for last season - i don't see how it'd be any different for this season. this season there were even two choices.
    The line I bolded is a BIG part of this game, obviously. It's human nature. While I actually enjoyed Russell last season, his total lack of concern for figuring out where he went wrong and TRYING to change that part of his game, and his absolute ARROGANCE so turned me off this season. Yes, he was arrogant last season, unbelievably, however, he learned NOTHING!

  8. #298
    Forum Assistant sweetpea's Avatar
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    Re: 5/16 Finale Show Discussion *Spoilers*

    I never really cared much for Parvati until her all-women alliance made it to the end in F v. F and she came out the winner. I respect her focus and her refusal to ride coat-tails. I would have been happy if she had won this season too, as she certainly played a good hard game. Love the analogy of waking up with some fleas. It's perfect, and unfortunately why she lost.

    I don't believe for a minute that Sandra rode coat tails. If anything, I think she was the complete outsider the entire game. When Russell blatantly said at that one TC "Sandra's just here" that said everything. He underestimated her, big time, and she helped that along when she agreed with him that she would gladly take 2nd place. She stroked his ego when she needed to, she challenged him when she wanted to, and she stayed silent and worked smart when she needed to. Russell went on and on last night about how her "get Russell out" strategy didn't work, but what I think he failed to realize was at some point she stopped trying so hard to get him out because she knew he was the perfect person to take to the end with her, and it was all because HE blew it with the jury and she knew he wouldn't win. I loved her little confessional when she said "Russell says I won't get any votes.... (smile).....I'm not too sure about that."

    He hates the fact that his dumb b*tches beat him again. Maybe you should face the fact, Russell, that they aren't all that dumb, they aren't "yours" and they beat your sorry butt twice at this game.

    Oh, but right, America loves you buddy. Take that, and your Sprint $100,000 and please go away.

  9. #299
    FORT Fanatic CuckoosNest's Avatar
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    Re: 5/16 Finale Show Discussion *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by NCLurker;3905520;
    The line I bolded is a BIG part of this game, obviously. It's human nature. While I actually enjoyed Russell last season, his total lack of concern for figuring out where he went wrong and TRYING to change that part of his game, and his absolute ARROGANCE so turned me off this season. Yes, he was arrogant last season, unbelievably, however, he learned NOTHING!
    Not that I'm defending the arrogant jerk in any way, but I can help but think that Russell thought he won Samoa the whole time they were filming HvV. (Remember that the vote reveal of Samoa came AFTER HvV was done filming.) I think this is what he meant when he said he "played once, not twice" at last night's show... he just (in typical Russell fashion) didn't express himself very well.

    All that being said, win or lose, I don't think he would have (or will) change a whit about his game. Because being stubborn and stupid is always a great idea.
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  10. #300
    FORT Fogey Longhornfan's Avatar
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    Re: 5/16 Finale Show Discussion *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by ironcat;3905490;
    The show and reunion were really illuminating as far as Russell's problem, what it takes to win Survivor as the game stands now, and why he never will.

    Russell's argument that Sandra had a failed strategy because all her attempts to take him out went for naught was incorrect; it was exactly this strategy that won her every hero's vote and ultimately the million. But since Russell has no understanding or appreciation for the end game, I'm not surprised that he can't comprehend this fact. He's like a golfer who can drive the ball the farthest and hit the green with his first shot every time, but can't sink a putt to save his life. It's a talent, but not enough to win a tournament as the rules stand. I also find it hysterical that now he wants to change the rules of the game to eliminate the part that he has no skills in, in order to win, rather than try to develop those skills and have a complete game. And of course it never occurs to him that if his competitors also didn't need to play with consideration of a jury, they too could be as ruthless and unrestricted in their style as he is with similar results.

    As others have stated, playing "under the radar" and "riding coattails" are two distinct strategies, not the same. Sandra is an expert at the UTR one for sure. If you are atrocious at the physical challenges, which she is, it is probably the only successful way to play this game.

    I also supect that they had Russell do 2 different PI's about the results of his first game, one speaking as if he'd won, and the other as if he'd lost, and then just edited in the one that applied. Jeff said in an interview that he thought Russell believed he had won in Samoa, and considering he only made a pretty cursory blanket "apology" at FTC to account for all his unsavory actions, I think he would have tried to do more (albeit badly) if he was absolutely sure they had cost him the earlier game.

    I was disappointed that Russell won the fan award, but with Rupert getting second place, ultimately not surprised. It shows that each of them still have enough rabid supporters to put them ahead of the pack, although if the vote was for the most detested player instead, I suspect these two would also finish in possibly the same order. It certainly is no indication that the majority of viewers like or respect Russell, or think he deserved to win. Also, I wonder if his supporters would still feel that way about him if they were out there with him, tired, starving and being mistreated and taunted by his "entertaining personality", instead of watching him from their comfy couch eating a bowl of popcorn (which is exactly why having the fans vote for the winner changes the game into something completely different).
    Thank you, Ironcat!!!!

    Your last paragraph pretty much sums it up for me. I could not agree with you more. From all that I have read, living with or around Russell in camp for that many days was sheer cruelty. Even Jeff aluded to it last night in the reunion show. Only those that "survived" to tell the tale know what it was like.
    Last edited by Longhornfan; 05-17-2010 at 11:59 AM.

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