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Thread: 12/20 Finale Show *Spoilers*

  1. #521
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    Re: 12/20 Finale Show *Spoilers*

    Participating in this discussion eats up my day. And yet I can't step away.

    On a little side note, there has been some discussion over Bob vs. Susie from Survivor: Gabon... I won't even begin to state my opinion on that in this thread, as I'll probably get a little too invested it. I'll just say that I would have preferred Susie.

    I've been reading some post-show interviews of both Natalie and Russell (Natalie says, "I don't like to count my eggs before they hatch," a lot ). Well, I'm pretty much reading only Natalie's interviews, since I can't get through Russell's bitter attitude. There are a couple of things that I found interesting. She said that she did a lot more than what her edit showed, which I believe since it's hard to cram everything in 42 minutes, especially with a lot of that time dedicated to one guy.

    She stated that every day that she was out in Samoa, she would stroke Russell's ego as much as possible. She would praise him all that she could, just so that he would get even more overconfident. Well, I say job well done. Obviously, Russell was about himself and only about himself. It turned off the jury. Also, by Natalie making herself seem like Russell's minion, it led Russell to believe that she was this weak little blonde girl that would do anything for him. So that's why he wanted her by his side until the end--he thought he could beat her. But with his ego the size of Texas, he didn't see that it turned other people off. Natalie had a hand in that. So with her established relationships and Russell's overconfidence, she walked away with the victory.

    She also also talked about how she would have liked to have played more aggresively, but her #1 strategy coming into Day1 was to adapt. She wanted to see where she could fit within the people around her. She spoke about this strategy to the jury when she talked about Marisa and Betsy going out first. Because of that, I don't think she did a horrible job at the FTC. In fact, I think she did the best out of three. In her interviews, she also talked about how she wanted to form her opening speech in the way that she thought the jury members would have liked it. So she definitely had a plan going into the FTC. She didn't feel defeated just yet.

    And the last interesting point I want to mention is Erik's boot. She doesn't say it was only her that had planned to boot Erik. Other Galu members had already been thinking of it. But after she spoke to the girls about possibly voting for Erik, the plan was a done deal. With her--yes, I'm going to say it again --her social game, she was able to finalize the plan. I know people argue that Natalie wouldn't have made it to the end if it weren't for Russell. I agree, she wouldn't have. But at the same time, he wouldn't have made it to the end if it weren't for her. What if Erik's boot didn't fall through? Foa Foa would have been decimated, and we probably would be discussing why Brett won.
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  2. #522
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    Re: 12/20 Finale Show *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by CuckoosNest;3775049;
    Not to get too sports oriented, but something very similar happened in professional sports, specifically Superbowl XLII in 2008. The New England Patriots were on a huge winning streak and had an undefeated season. They were widely being regarded as perhaps the best pro football team ever. They went up against the underdog New York Giants; with 2:42 left in the game, New England was ahead 14-10. Some NE players actually began consoling the NY players, telling them they had played a great game, they were worthy opponents and too bad they lost.

    Of course, the Giants scored a touchdown and beat the Patriots by 3. The Patriots were stunned. Everyone was. But it happened. The "best" team simply got outplayed. Did their cockiness have anything to do with the loss? Perhaps... that's open to interpretation as well. I say it there's no way it didn't help bring about their downfall.

    So, is Russell the "best player ever"? That's also totally open to interpretation. I say no because his game was fueled by ego and not sportsmanship. His true motivation for pursuing the win was to show everyone how great HE was, not how well he played the game, no matter what he said to the contrary. Further, the "best player ever" wouldn't be disgracing himself post-game like Russell is now.

    He got cocky. He misjudged the jury and lost. He was perceived as a bully. His post-show antics only reinforce that thinking. Seriously, Russ... man up and move on.
    No need to worry about getting too sports-oriented. I actually liked the comparison.

    I agree, it's totally open to interpretation. That's why we're continuing to still discuss this issue. I've already stated my opinion many times; heck, my avatar states it for me.

    He just got way too overconfident, which Natalie had a hand in as I mentioned in my last post. He didn't recognize the importance of the social game, and in the end, that was his downfall.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjjmom;3775083;
    The jury picks the winner. Russell lost. I accept that. I won't accept that Natalie was a better player, or even nearly as good, as Russell. What I fail to understand is how some people think Russell misplayed the jury. First, he didn't play a bad social game. His nastiness was mostly in confessionals, not to people's faces. And the only way to go when you play an aggressive game, as Russ did, is really to do what Russell did. I don't know how you can play it humble for the jury when you clearly controlled the whole game. My feeling is that Russell could NOT have won over this jury. There was nothing he could have said to make them get over their bitterness at having been voted off.

    What some posters here seem to be saying is that he should have played an entirely different game - ie. Natalie's game. And if he had done that, he would have been sitting on the jury at the end, along with all of the FFs. Most likely choosing between Laura, Brett, and some other Galu. The only miscalculation Russell made is that when you control the game, you risk losing. I don't think he could have played it any other way, and I don't think some other strategy would have won for him with the losers on the jury. I still believe Russell played a terrific game. I don't approve of his post-game conduct, but I also think that Natalie acknowledging she could never have won without him (which is clearly the truth) might have gone a long way to smoothing things over.
    You don't have to accept she was the better player, just like how I won't accept that Natalie didn't deserve her win.

    He misplayed the jury before the FTC. Reading these interviews, they all hated him (except Shambo). I'm thinking that it was him personally that turned them off, but it could have been his gameplay. He may have possibly went too overboard with all of the deals that he made. Did he need to make that deal with Brett? No, not really. He probably would have been safe if Brett won immunity. With him going back on his word, he probably turned off many of the jury. Also, they also probably disliked his ego, like how he donned the HII around his neck when he didn't necessarily have to. In the end, Russell cared too much about the strategy and didn't pay attention much to the people around him.

    He shouldn't have played a different game. I don't think anyone is saying that. However, he should have played his cards right better. Maybe he should't have made so many unnecessary deals. Maybe he shouldn't have showboated the HII. But something he could have easily done was plan on the endgame better. If he was more aware of it, he should have seen that Natalie was in the cohorts with everyone. He even commented on it once: it was during one episode where Liz was still in the game. She was annoyed that Natalie was talking with everyone. But then Russell commented how Natalie was smart to get to know everyone. So he did recognize it. He just didn't realize how important it was in the endgame. If he brought people who had played equally as horrible social games (like a combination of any of Shambo, Jaison, and Mick), maybe he would have won.

    Quote Originally Posted by edifiz100;3775093;
    I donít see how people think that Natalie played a Ďsocial gameí. Not being rude to anyone, not getting into any fights and not planning/plotting do not translate into a good social game. Thatís playing no game. From what I saw, she did not go out of her way to help others, form any personal bond with anyone (except Brett) or play a peacemaker anytime. Basically she did nothing. Natalie won only and only because the jury hated Russell and disliked Mick.

    Now after seeing the finale and the reunion, I feel with this jury, Russell had no chances of winning. They would have picked Shambo (if Shambo had made it to the final three) over Russell . Jasion tries to act like this reasonable and matured individual but he is the most immature of the lot. He of all people should have appreciated Russell and his game. He should be angrier at Mick and Natalie than Russell cos he himself had called Russell a snake in one of the earlier episode.
    Not getting into fights isn't what a social game is about. It's about getting to know everyone else on a personal level in hopes that they will like you. Natalie did that, Russell didn't. Could it possibly be that we didn't see it because each episode was dedicated to Russell or Shambo (or Laura, I guess)? Natalie speaks about how she loved everyone out there and how her closest friend in the game was Ashley. I honestly don't remember any scenes between Natalie and Ashley being shown, and yet Natalie is calling Ashley her "little sister." And I think Russell could have won with this jury. During the reunion, Jeff polled the would-be jury if it were a Russell-Shambo-Jaison F3. Russell got the majority (only Erik and Laura raised their hand for Shambo). Now, this isn't definite, since we don't know how Shambo and Jaison would have done in the FTC. But there's a good chance that this would have happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribal Speak;3775099;
    No, not at all. What I get is that some people are suggesting that he should have paid more attention to his own social aspect of the game. And I also get that when people refer to him working the jury, they are not refering to working the jury just during Final TC, but also working the jury before they even get on the jury (ie: during the game, before they are even voted out). This is what Natalie did. (Not to mention engineering the Erik vote). Kudos to her for the win. Russell was not a complete player. Missed the social aspect and did not win. Best player ever?
    Totally agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsqueeze;3775224;
    I respect everyone's opinion and have greatly enjoyed reading them. I even enjoyed reading the article that was posted. However, here is the opinion that I will value the most...Jeff Probst, take it away!!

    Jeff Probst: 'Nobody outwitted or outplayed Russell.' - USATODAY.com

    Again, I respect everyone's thoughts and opinions, but Jeff was there everyday, so he saw what happened firsthand and also saw video that we didn't see. So if he says Russell was the man, then I agree.

    Natalie, congratulations!! Spend your money well!!
    Glad you liked that article I posted a few pages back!

    As for Jeff, I don't know if I would go off on his opinion. Like others have said, he is horribly biased to the manly man of a player. Now, this show would be horribly different (in a bad way) if he were to leave, so I still appreciate him as a host. But he's still biased.

    Quote Originally Posted by jadewarlock;3775331;
    I don't know why anyone would want the words "Sole Survivor" anyway. To my knowledge, these guys get to keep nothing they wear at the game, such as the immunity idol necklace, the HII, even their buffs, because they get donated to the charity fundraiser (BTW, can anyone explain to me why they aren't doing the Elizabeth Glazer foundation anymore?)
    I'm also wondering what happened between Survivor and the Elizabeth Glaser foundation! Would anyone happen to know?
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  3. #523
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    Re: 12/20 Finale Show *Spoilers*

    Jeff is always biased about his "Bromance" of the season. Nothing new there.

  4. #524
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    Re: 12/20 Finale Show *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by Fierce Critter;3775448;
    Sooo... has every UTR player who won had a bitter jury who voted AGAINST a "better player" to thank?

    If not, then why is it ok for some people to win this way and others not to?
    I think it's because Russel dominated this season like few others. It would have been like seeing Brian H. also not win in a way. Brian, like Russel, ran their tribes. Also, other UTR's in the past were able to put forth heated arguments in final tribal councils, whereas both Nat and Mick's speeches and question answers (that we saw) were really flimsy.

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    Re: 12/20 Finale Show *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by spockwhat;3775498;
    I think it's because Russel dominated this season like few others.
    Yes, he definitely dominated. Then again, Napoleon & Hitler both dominated Europe, Japan dominated the Pacific and OJ Simpson dominated the football field.

    Okay, that was a little wise-ass-ish, I'll admit. My point is that you can overplay the game, too.
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  6. #526
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    Re: 12/20 Finale Show *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by CuckoosNest;3775514;
    Yes, he definitely dominated. Then again, Napoleon & Hitler both dominated Europe, Japan dominated the Pacific and OJ Simpson dominated the football field.

    Okay, that was a little wise-ass-ish, I'll admit. My point is that you can overplay the game, too.
    Yep and Ozzy was the most dominating player I've ever seen and guess what; he lost to the player with the social game.
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    Re: 12/20 Finale Show *Spoilers*

    Iím going to jump in here for just a second because I do have multiple gifts to wrap and many other things to get done before the holiday. I apologize for not responding directly to a couple of people who posted to me. I just donít have the time right now to make multiple posts.

    I did try to post last night from my handheld but I gave up Ė too difficult on that tiny little thing. But what I was going to post was virtually nearly word for word what Jeff Probst said. Thank you to whoever posted that link.

    I donít devalue the social aspect of this game. In fact I posted a few weeks ago that I thought Russell would lose this thing because of the social aspect. I wasnít at all surprised when he didnít win, but I was disappointed. Itís clear to me that itís not the best player who wins. The winner is arbitrary because no one, and I mean NO ONE, knows how the jury is going to vote. Natalie was just hoping that this jury would vote for the nicer person and Russell was hoping the jury would vote for the all out player. Iíve seen juries that despise those that ride coat tails and play nice all season and Iíve seen juries that are bitter and vote for the coat-tail rider. All of these comments have been made multiple times over in this thread.

    I think on this board we have a case of what is on the jury - people who look for and respond to different things. I get the feeling there are people on here who initially felt Russell should win but have changed their minds since seeing his behavior after the show. Thatís how quickly a jury can turn. Or perhaps someone who is very social and values that, gets to the jury, and then realizes that this is a game and decides to vote for the one who played hardest. I donít think anyone knows ahead of time how the jury is going to vote. Of course the social aspect should always be taken into consideration and itís hard to know from what we saw just how badly a social game Russell played. Being a snake isnít the same as being disliked. Natalie was a snake too. Russell looks like a pirate, Natalie looks like Cinderella. Should Russell have taken Natalie to the final? Absolutely not! Big miscalculation! Iím not on the band wagon that says Russell is the best of all time. I wouldnít even know how to judge that.


    I donít really put Natalie strictly into the coat-tail riding UTR category. She did ride Russell but she also played him. She stroked his ego because she saw he responded to praise. She never claimed to be the nice girl who didnít have dirty hands. She simply said she was more subtle than Russell. So I do think Natalie had a game. However, it wasnít a big game. It might have been the only game she had. I think she played the best game she could.

    Russell had a big game. He played hard every single day for 39 days. While others were laying around he was out looking for idols. That second to the last immunity challenge that Brett won with the puzzles Ė did you see how fast Russell scaled that wall to get up to the platform? I mean that was day 38 and heís running up that thing like an Olympian.

    And the final IC? That was clutch play if I ever saw it! He had to win that challenge or Brett wins 1 million dollars. To keep your focus like that while Jeff is standing there reminding you of how important this challenge is. Jeff was taunting them, reminding them that if you drop that statute it may cost you 1 million dollars! Russell once again outplayed an extremely good player Ė Brett!

    If Russellís game had been less dominant it would be easier to accept a Natalie win. But given how thoroughly he dominated the game and how hard he played and how clutch he was when it really mattered, I canít give the prize to the one who played a decent game but a soft game that completely relied on the one who played the big game to get her to the end. I just could not in good conscience award the prize to her.

    A couple of side comments Ė Iím thinking that Russell knew Jeff felt he was the best player and thatís why he asked to buy the title from Natalie. He was smiling when he suggested it and it was rather funny when he responded to Jeffís question about what exactly Russell was asking for and Russell said he was asking Natalie to ask Jeff to tell Russell that he was the Sole Survivor. It was awfully funny I thought. Believe me, Iím appalled by most of Russellís behavior. I do wish he would show some class at this point. I just donít think itís in him and I think Natalie knows Russell very well and is not surprised by anything he says or does. Sheís a strong girl and can handle Russell. I also think Russell is quite the character and he does crack me up at times!

    Also, whether most of the members came up to Russell and told him they made a mistake in their votes is questionable but if they did say that, it may well have been the editing from viewing the episodes at home, but it might also have just been that their adult consciousness reclaimed their brains once they were off the island and they realized who the real player was. JMO

    Sorry for the long post. Iím brain dead right now (no puns please ). Time to wrap presents!

  8. #528
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    Re: 12/20 Finale Show *Spoilers*

    Theres a video interview on Popwatch EW thats interesting to check out. Russell says in the interview all the jury members but Dave and Laura came to him personally at the finale and said they made a mistake voting for Natalie. Also a lot of other juicy stuff.

  9. #529
    FORT Fanatic xDC3x's Avatar
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    Re: 12/20 Finale Show *Spoilers*

    In response to C4Real, before I go on with my main point I want to say that I personally don't value IC wins, as much as most do anyway, or not the paticular one you mentioned. He needed to win at that point to get to the finals but after he won he was deciding whether he wanted Natalie to win or whether he wanted Brett to win.

    Don't get me wrong IC are extremely important, but he was in such a terrible position anyway, it was kind of irrelevant if he had won or lost honestly. He might have been fourth at the lowest, but when you put yourself in such a bad position leading up to the final tribal I don't value that win at all. The one before that he did decently, but it's not about the immunity challenges for me.

    My main point that I wanted to say is that I think editing had a HUGE play in most peoples perceptions. For the first portion or so of the game I honestly thought Russell had it in the bag. I took a step back to realize wait, he is being far too reckless. HE cannot win this game. He was TOO dominant. I know this is a hard concept for people to understand but restraint can be your best asset. He was under the Ronnie fallacy from BB. I'm gonna make as many moves as I can. Most moves wins! Nope. Not how it works or how it worked.

    Editing had a key role in all of our perceptions. Why am I so adamant in my perception? Because Natalie White won in a landslide 7-2 win over Russell Hantz and Mick. Beautifully done.

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    Re: 12/20 Finale Show *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by ironcat;3775433;
    But if that's the way Probst feels, then why even bother to have the vote? It's not like the rankings in tennis, which are based on cumulative results. If there is going to be a threshhold, where someone must be awarded the prize for reaching a certain degree of domination, then throw out the jury and, as an earlier poster mentioned, install an impartial "blue ribbon panel" to choose who is most worthy.
    I don't understand where Jeff, having an opinion, leads to saying that the game should be changed.

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