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Thread: 10/13 Show Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

  1. #251
    FORT god cable101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BravoFan
    I think it's ridiculous that someone would need to ask permission to pray. If Brian doesn't want to be a part of it, then he can just walk away rather than go against his own beliefs. If, for instance, there was a player or players that were Muslim I would consider it ridiculous for him/her/them to ask permission from the others to do so.
    I agree completely. Plus, this is not exactly a Survivor first, by any means. Remember Australia? How about Marquesas? You can either object to prayer and risk being voted out, or you can grin and bare it. When it comes down to it, a large percentage of Americans are Christian, and so you can assume that a large percentage of your tribe will be Christian as well. I doubt Brian wasn't prepared to be praying every meal, with how much of a Survivor fanatic he is.

  2. #252
    everything under the sun lopevian's Avatar
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    Brian just likes to hear himself talk. That's why he couldn't handle Blake. Now that Blake is gone, Brian can once again be the center of attention. But he'll think he deserves it, unlike Blake who didn't deserve anything because he already has everything.
    I'm sorry, I don't mean to be negative, but Brian bugs me.

    I think a big reason so many players have mentioned their faith, whatever that may be, is because they likely go to church or temple or whatever once a week. They miss about six weeks of services I guess. They may wish to replicate or incoporate something of their faith into their existence in the jungle or on an island, to fill that void. But nobody should force anything on anyone, and I'm not sure at all any of the Yaxha tribe did that to Brian.
    "...Mr. Bluebird on my shoulder..."

  3. #253
    Toby's Slave kimrs's Avatar
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    I think Brian just likes to talk in the confessionals for entertainment purposes. He sounds like he is putting on a show for the producers or the people at home. Very dramatic, but funny!

  4. #254
    FORT Fogey
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    Quote Originally Posted by snickers
    ok this is what bothered me about the praying thing

    did they shove it down his throat? probably not, but we dont know for sure, but i doubt they did

    because they all seem to be a religious tribe and want to pray, that makes brian an outcast, people said, well he can just say he doesnt want to pray

    no he cant

    that will paint a huge target on his back possibly, i know if i were him i would not say "no i'm not gonna pray"

    like he said, he has to roll with the punches

    but to me its just direspectful to assume EVERYONE wants to pray to jesus for thier meal, i mean its one thing if you are a guest in someone's house and they pray before meal, but this is different

    i mean sure, they could have asked, "would this bother anyone" but for some reason, i'm thinking no they didnt

    and brian is right, he cant be like "sorry guys, i dont want to thank jesus for this meal"

    you just cant do that, i dont think the people who are criticising him for what he said really understand that
    Exactly.

  5. #255
    I Think I Can Dance. Aota Bass's Avatar
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    Just to toot my own horn for a second, I posted my pre-show predictions, before we even knew for sure that Bobby Jon & Steph were joining the show (except for those who read spoilers).

    While I was slightly off on who would make it this far and who wound up on which tribe post-shuffle, this was fairly accurate all things considered:

    << -Well, here we are among Mayan ruins where nothing bad ever... WTF?!?!?!?!?! Do WHAT with our buffs? That's right, folks. The dreaded random tribal shuffle has arrived. While there's no telling what's gonna happen, I'll say for reasons of clairvoyance that Brian and Gary join Nakum while Judd and Brooke cross over to Yaxha. This makes my hypothetical new tribes as follows:

    NAKUM:
    Blake
    Brandon
    Brian
    Danni
    Gary
    Jim
    Margaret

    YAXHA:
    Brooke
    Judd
    Lydia
    Morgan
    Rafe

    Things look bleak for the new Yaxha tribe, now with fresh wimpy scent! Surely the strapping young men whose names start with B can easily whoop their a- WHA???? Yes- the invisible one, the "big" guy, the fishmonger, the twig, and the gay Mormon actually pull off an immunity win against all odds! WOOO! We all feel really good about this, and there's something really amusing about the look on Gary's face, especially. The new Nakum tribe goes to tribal council. Brian and Gary are obvious targets seeing as how they haven't gotten to know the others as well and aren't as loyal to them. Brian is a schemer and tries to get Blake out of there before he can kick butt in individual challenges. Surely that plan won't work, I mean- they've only known this guy for two days- can he really manipulate them that quic--- WOW! He can! Somehow Brian and Gary convince enough Nakum members to vote out BLAKE! Gotta give those guys credit.>>
    And I sing sometimes like my life is at stake because you're only as loud as the noises you make.

  6. #256
    PWS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayven
    Er, you do get what I'm saying, right? When I go into the entire example of the difference between Ibrahim, who did not shove his religion down anyone's throat, and the group whose public prayer is making at least one member of their team uncomfortable? I did explain that fairly clearly, yes?

    I understand arguing semantics for the sake of argument, but I'd like to assume that we all understand the bigger picture: the fact that Survivor is, above all, a social game, and any choice you take to make yourself a social outsider has game repercussions. This is not a microcosm of society as a whole. The question of whether Brian could or could not have said 'Hey, sorry, thanks, not going to pray' among a seven-person tribe in a Guatemalan jungle has absolutely no relation to the more general, real-world question of whether Brian could or could not have said the same thing in a restaurant in Manhattan.

    I am not suggesting that the mealtime prayer was initiated for any sort of strategic reason -- but there is no question that Brian's participation in it is strictly strategic. if he does not participate, he brands himself as 'different,' 'outsider,' 'not One Of Us.' In short, think of that night's vote: it took effort to swing two Nakum away from Brian. If Brian had done something to alienate those two Nakum members -- offend them at dinner, perhaps? -- that vote could easily have gone a different way, and he might have been gone rather than Blake.

    And my point is, it's a shame for someone to be put in that position over an expression of faith which should be private.

    Tay
    Totally agree. And while I'm on it, this is why prayer in the schools is a bad idea--life in grade school is like Survivor--you don't want to be the outsider or your life can be hell. Forcing children to speak up for their families' beliefs or be hypocrites is a terrible thing to do. I go back before they put God in the Pledge of Allegiance and when prayer in schools was common. It was awful for the outsiders, and I say that even though I wasn't one of them. People who can't see that seem to me to totally lack imagination. I don't believe that if those Survivors who want to pray were told others didn't that they wouldn't take it amiss. They are used to doing it, they think it's "right", and if they were told they should keep their prayers to themselves, however politely, I"m betting there's a good chance they would be offended, and would confab about/against the "atheists" behind their backs. Be a great wedge tool. Very "unChristian" of course but then not even Jesus would be surprised by that (see good Samaritan story).
    But back to Survivor strategy, it would be amusing to find out there's actually only one person who normally prays over meals, but that person spoke first and no one else felt free to disagree for fear of the target. If they but knew!
    What I'm also wondering is how this fits in with the split. Did one tribe pray before the split and the other not? And then some prayers stop when they switched tribes? We should be able to use that info to figure out which of a small group are the ones who wanted to pray. What happens when they merge? Wonder if the originator of the prayers will survive til then or if others will carry it on not knowing that no one else wants to. Maybe Jeff can ask about this in the post show.

  7. #257
    FORT Fogey realityfan101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayven
    Er, you do get what I'm saying, right? When I go into the entire example of the difference between Ibrahim, who did not shove his religion down anyone's throat, and the group whose public prayer is making at least one member of their team uncomfortable? I did explain that fairly clearly, yes?

    I understand arguing semantics for the sake of argument, but I'd like to assume that we all understand the bigger picture: the fact that Survivor is, above all, a social game, and any choice you take to make yourself a social outsider has game repercussions. This is not a microcosm of society as a whole. The question of whether Brian could or could not have said 'Hey, sorry, thanks, not going to pray' among a seven-person tribe in a Guatemalan jungle has absolutely no relation to the more general, real-world question of whether Brian could or could not have said the same thing in a restaurant in Manhattan.

    I am not suggesting that the mealtime prayer was initiated for any sort of strategic reason -- but there is no question that Brian's participation in it is strictly strategic. if he does not participate, he brands himself as 'different,' 'outsider,' 'not One Of Us.' In short, think of that night's vote: it took effort to swing two Nakum away from Brian. If Brian had done something to alienate those two Nakum members -- offend them at dinner, perhaps? -- that vote could easily have gone a different way, and he might have been gone rather than Blake.

    And my point is, it's a shame for someone to be put in that position over an expression of faith which should be private.

    Tay
    Uhhmm at what point does he become responsible? He could have spoken up and said he didn't want to participate. He didn't, he just sat there and participated. As far as they know he isn't offended, I mean come on he even threw an amen in there. Furthermore, where is it written that expressions of faith have to be kept private? Why are people so offended by individuals expressing their religious beliefs out loud?

    Quote Originally Posted by snickers
    ok this is what bothered me about the praying thing

    did they shove it down his throat? probably not, but we dont know for sure, but i doubt they did

    because they all seem to be a religious tribe and want to pray, that makes brian an outcast, people said, well he can just say he doesnt want to pray

    no he cant

    that will paint a huge target on his back possibly, i know if i were him i would not say "no i'm not gonna pray"

    like he said, he has to roll with the punches

    but to me its just direspectful to assume EVERYONE wants to pray to jesus for thier meal, i mean its one thing if you are a guest in someone's house and they pray before meal, but this is different

    i mean sure, they could have asked, "would this bother anyone" but for some reason, i'm thinking no they didnt

    and brian is right, he cant be like "sorry guys, i dont want to thank jesus for this meal"

    you just cant do that, i dont think the people who are criticising him for what he said really understand that
    If he really didn't want to pray and was offended by it, he should have spoken up. Is the game more important to him than his beliefs? If so, then that's Brian's problem, not the rest of the tribe's.
    Last edited by realityfan101; 10-18-2005 at 11:12 AM.

  8. #258
    FORT Fan rupertshoney's Avatar
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    I honestly can't imagine they would vote him off because he didn't want to pray. Geez, if he is considerate about how he approaches them with it, then I again say they would be worried they might have offended him. And again, we don't know if they (whoever it was) didn't ask outloud if having prayer was a problem for anyone. And you know what, even if being quiet about it was his only way to avoid being voted out, then why add "Amen". C'mon...I don't always say Amen after a prayer,so he is just playing it up to them. Which is fine, it is part of Survivor.

  9. #259
    Director of Sunshine Zerfley's Avatar
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    I don't think Brian had a problem with the praying at all, it's just not something he does. I do think he was totally getting off on the fact that he was playing them - throwing in the Amen and the little hand raise at the end of the prayer. That's not someone that's keeping quite so he doesn't alienate the rest of his tribe or staying quite out of respect for their beliefs. That's someone that thinks he's a puppetmaster. It goes along with all the rest of his confessionals for the night about how he's playing the game. He is a bit of a tool but I hope his mental game is as good as he thinks it is because it would be a nice change from the physically dominant or UTR players.
    "There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." B. Russell

  10. #260
    PWS
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    It probably wouldn't be THE reason, just one more annoying thing about Brian (who I agree is annoying, by the way, and also not bothered in any serious way by the praying), but get real--Judd and BJ seem ready to vote Margaret out because she makes a suggestion about how the tarp should go up (and you get the impression she was probably right)--it doesn't take much when people are looking for any reason to point a finger at someone and say, dump him, not me.
    If I can quote realityfan 101 above, "where is it written that expressions of faith have to be kept private? Why are people so offended by individuals expressing their religious beliefs out loud?" Doesn't that sound like one annoyed Survivor grousing to another after being told that yes, it would bother me if you prayed over our food?

    To answer the question tho, your religious beliefs interfere with mine when you invade my "turf", whether physical or auditory. You can express your beliefs however you want on your own time in your own place, just not on mine. I realize that creates a problem for people whose religious beliefs demand that they recruit--e.g., Jehovah's Witnesses and assorted evangelicals, but the idea that your religion is better than mine (or my lack of one if I'm an atheist) is really quite offensive, and for you (generic you, not anyone special on the site) to ask me (generic me) to sit and listen to you to be polite can be asking a lot if I actually care about my religion or atheism.

    In Brian's case though I don't think he cares strongly about whatever his religion may be, or he doesn't feel threatened by their religious beliefs--he'd more just be rolling his eyes and sighing if he weren't in "fit in" mode. But I do think he's right to be in that mode--and clearly he's the consciously manipulative kind of Survivor, whether it is his Amens or his leading Blake to act like a frat boy. And I admit even though I don't like him much I'm enjoying hearing someone actually be proactive in ways other than winning challenges or working around camp.

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