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Thread: 12/14 Show Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

  1. #111
    FORT Fogey
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    Re: 12/14 Show Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

    I think there are a number of reasons Coach may have performed for the viewers, if that's what he's doing. He may want to absolve himself of backstabbing Brandon by being able to claim God told him to do it, which some people, including Brandon, might accept. He may want to look better to the jurors, presuming they'd buy that he did what God was telling him to do, so he has to keep up the act for everyone, including the viewers. Or he just simply really, really wants to be thought of as this great leader with integrity and honesty. That seems to be really important to him, hence his references to himself as Coach and Dragonslayer. It may even have be the catalyst (or part of it) for him to become a minister. If that's important to him, it may matter to him that the viewers think of him as someone who gets direct instructions from God as opposed to someone who simply does what's best for his own game.

    I didn't like Boston Rob in any of his seasons, particularly the last one, because he seemed to take such great pleasure in making others look foolish, even when it didn't make a difference in his game (e.g. convincing everyone to name the merged tribe after one of his wife's stuffed animals, just so the two of them could laugh about it). I was also just opposed to turning loose experienced players with a bunch of newbies. Dont like it this season either. I dislike Coach's tactics for different reasons that I disliked Rob's, however. Coach doesn't seem to take any particular pleasure in making people look stupid, but he does try to pretend that he's playing this tremendously ethical, honest game that matches his professed Biblically-based principles, when that's clearly not the case. Rob got by on his supposed charms. Coach is trying to get by on his supposed integrity. I guess I just don't like people who try to slyly manipulate other people without seeming to feel the least bit of remorse about it. I know it's part of the game, but we have seen people feel like crap when they've blindsided someone or apologized later when they felt as if they'd been particularly mean-spirited to someone. I guess if you're going to lie and cheat and laugh at people behind their backs, I'd rather you either felt some guilt about it or presented yourself as someone wholly nasty from the get-go, like Johnny Fairplay. Just don't try to pretend you're justified in behaving crassly for the sake of your family or because God told you to do it.

  2. #112
    FORT Fogey Longhornfan's Avatar
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    Re: 12/14 Show Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

    Quote Originally Posted by sweetpea View Post
    I don't know. It's really, at the end of the day, none of my business, but I still don't really believe Ben, because to me, the things he has done in the name of "Christianity" during this show (praying to find the HII while it's in his pocket, saying God told him to vote off Brandon, yanking Edna down into the group prayer) feels more to me like a big "show" - as does the overt praying on the beach in front of the camera. I may be totally wrong, but I just have this feeling Coach is disingenuous.

    Does anyone remember, after his first (or was it 2nd) season on Survivor, when he was pitching a movie he wrote, starring himself, about a rock musician...?? Well, here's the trailer if anyone is interested:

    180 Trailer

    This was 2010, so not that long ago. Sorry, but the whole thing just made me
    Sweetpea, that trailer is hilarious!!! OMG. The attempt at acting was atrocious. The only person that I even recognized, other than Ben Wade, was the woman, but I don't know her name. Thanks for bringing that forward, because it just adds to the huge question mark that I have for who is this man?

    Spockwhat, thank you for the information on Coach and the church that he is supposed to be leading. If nothing else, he is a fascinating character.
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  3. #113
    Forum Assistant sweetpea's Avatar
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    Re: 12/14 Show Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

    Tilden, I get where you're coming from when talking about both Rob and Coach. I totally understand and can appreciate those who don't like Rob and believe me, there were a couple of times last season where I cringed a bit at the unnecessary comments or actions. What saved him, for me at least, was the twinkle in his eye and his ability (I thought) to laugh at himself as well as the people he was playing with. Plus his outright love for the game of Survivor and his obvious love for his wife and kids make me like him so much. He seemed to be having fun with playing, whereas Coach seems so deadly serious, even a bit fanatical at times, it's kind of scary.

    I do agree with those that say Coach using God as the means to justify a decision he had already made is silly and rather pathetic. And I do not for a minute believe the jury bought any of it. I think they will roast him at the FTC. The sad thing is I think he will be genuinely hurt by their roasting because I see him as a man who truly believes the persona of himself as this man to be looked up to, this leader amongst men, this Coach and Dragonslayer. He was hurt during HvV because others were calling him on his crap, and Tyson told him to lay off the tall tales and the grandiose gestures. Did he this time around? Perhaps. But still, that OTT persona comes through and unfortunately for Coach there are jury members who won't buy it.

  4. #114
    Forum Assistant sweetpea's Avatar
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    Re: 12/14 Show Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

    Oh, and just another interesting tidbit...from Brandon's wife's twitter activity, I think Brandon and his family were NOT amused by Coach's gameplay last episode. She sent tweets out to what I guess is the "fake" Coach account:

    Remember, these are in order of latest to earliest:

    mommyhantz candace hantz
    @the_real_coach if you would have seen his face when he saw the things you said and did...you would be mad at yourself too!!!!
    15 Dec

    mommyhantz candace hantz
    @the_real_coach im sorry but you really hurt us deep and no one can explain the hurt my husband felt...
    15 Dec

    mommyhantz candace hantz
    @the_real_coach Jesus christ isnt there for us to manipulate people nd use as an excuse in a gameshow but he is supposed to be honored
    15 Dec

    mommyhantz candace hantz
    im just wonderin if u can give me an honest reason why you used God to manipulate my husband and make what u did seem right @the_real_coach
    15 Dec

    mommyhantz candace hantz
    @the_real_coach that wasnt very nice what you did to my husband...im upset....VERY UPSET!!! but you know what i forgive you i truely do!!!
    I think Brandon was genuinely hurt by Coach's actions, and not just because he voted him out but because as others have pointed out he had already made up his mind that Brandon had to go, and the rest just seemed like manipulation and grandstanding.

  5. #115
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    Re: 12/14 Show Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

    Quote Originally Posted by sweetpea View Post
    Tilden, I get where you're coming from when talking about both Rob and Coach. I totally understand and can appreciate those who don't like Rob and believe me, there were a couple of times last season where I cringed a bit at the unnecessary comments or actions. What saved him, for me at least, was the twinkle in his eye and his ability (I thought) to laugh at himself as well as the people he was playing with. Plus his outright love for the game of Survivor and his obvious love for his wife and kids make me like him so much. He seemed to be having fun with playing, whereas Coach seems so deadly serious, even a bit fanatical at times, it's kind of scary.

    I do agree with those that say Coach using God as the means to justify a decision he had already made is silly and rather pathetic. And I do not for a minute believe the jury bought any of it. I think they will roast him at the FTC. The sad thing is I think he will be genuinely hurt by their roasting because I see him as a man who truly believes the persona of himself as this man to be looked up to, this leader amongst men, this Coach and Dragonslayer. He was hurt during HvV because others were calling him on his crap, and Tyson told him to lay off the tall tales and the grandiose gestures. Did he this time around? Perhaps. But still, that OTT persona comes through and unfortunately for Coach there are jury members who won't buy it.

    Oh, I fully expected you--or someone--to leap to Rob's defense and tell me how how he loves his family and the game. I'm sorry, but for me, that doesn't excuse him behaving so smugly about being the Robfather and laughing openly at people behind their backs and thinking it was funny to make them look stupid or naive, even when it had nothing to do with his game play, just for his own (and Amber's) amusement. If he loves his family so much, he ought to think about how he might feel if either of his daughters or his wife were treated in the same way by someone else, no matter what game they were playing or how much that person twinkled and grinned when he did it. It's not just that he lied or manipulated--it's that he enjoyed it so much. To me, he comes off like the salesman who sells a bad product to someone he knows believes his pitch and doesn't give it a second thought, because he's much too busy counting his own commission.

    That being said, I did worry when he nearly fell down that huge flight of steps in one of the challenges. I don't wish him harm. I just wish he might someday understand that his grin and supposedly smooth talk aren't as universally charming as he clearly thinks they are and that one day his willingness to use people to further his own needs could come back to bite him or those he cares about. Personally I don't buy that he could have just developed that persona for Survivor. That kind of snake oil salesman attitude generally takes much longer to develop, and he's had it since his first season of Survivor, so I imagine he just didn't come up with that approach to dealing with other people on the fly. I also hate the whole "it's only a game" attitude. It's also on television, on DVDs, in people's memories etc., and he and Coach are both going to have to live with whatever they did or do for quite some time. Maybe the million dollars tempers that for Rob. Money's never been that important to me--I never expect to be a millionaire and I won't be disappointed if I never am. But it would make me cringe to see myself using someone's blind admiration of me or something he/she thought I stood for to use that person, and it wouldn't make my family particularly proud to see that happen either, nor would it fit with what I believe, so I couldn't use faith or family to excuse it.

    I don't intend to get into another argument about Rob ever with anyone. He's a generally polarizing figure, and I know it. I only brought him up because it related to an idea I was trying to express that goes beyond just Coach and why I--me, personally, not anyone else--dislike players who seem not to care what they have to do to win but must justify it somehow (family, family, love of the game etc.) as opposed to those who at least seem to feel some remorse or guilt about hurting others along the way or those who are completely upfront about not caring what they have to do to win. I don't like the latter either, but at least they're clear about what they intend to do and expect people will probably dislike them for doing it and don't expect anything different. It's also why I've never really thought of Survivor as a game, even though they call it one. I'm not sure what to call it, exactly, but games have rules. The fact that Survivor essentially has none, except perhaps that no actual crime be committed, as I'd like to think that if one player physically assaulted another one, that player would be ejected from the game and possibly face criminal charges, pretty much disqualifies it as a game.

    I also realize I'm not ever very likely to see people who try to handle themselves as decently as humanly possible, given the situation, win. But every once in a while, someone like that does win or at least makes it pretty far, and that makes me feel better. In a way, as dumb a move as it might have been for his own position, and as much as I suspect I wouldn't agree with his overall view of Christianity, what Brandon did in giving up the immunity necklace makes me feel better that there are people struggling to do what they think is right, regardless of the circumstances or how much money is on the line. Brandon may be naive, but he's not using people or their beliefs the way Coach is. I also liked Rick calling Albert out on not giving the necklace back when he thought Brandon might be in trouble. Coach and Albert have both been playing Brandon and doing it under the guise of shared principles. That just rankles me, no matter what the situation.
    AZChristian and Photobabe like this.

  6. #116
    chavy chaf chaf Asteroids Champion, Bejeweled 2 Champion, GalaGalaGa Champion, Spider Solitaire Arkadium Champion, Doyu Gems Champion, Alu`s Revenge Champion, Beat The Meter Champion, BejeweledŽ 2 Action Champion, Little Protectors Champion spockwhat's Avatar
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    Re: 12/14 Show Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

    Quote Originally Posted by Photobabe View Post
    Ahhh, but he probably wasn't really lying. He wanted Brandon out next. His mind had been made up. So, he prayed. But the answer he got didn't come from God, the answer came from his own mind. He is delusional and thinks God talks directly to him regarding trivial matters.

    For those here who pray, try it. Make up your mind about something. Have no doubts about your decision. Now, ask God what you should do. The answer will be what you have already decided to do, because you have free will and God generally does not interfere with that. His answer to your prayer is "you already made your decision".

    Brandon isn't smart enough to figure that out.
    Well, then Coach neither. But I still question it, his looks of guilt are profound... like his doubts as to whether that was his own decision or a recieved one. My sense is he is completely knowing of what he is doing.

    sweetpea that trailer rocked. It was so awful... but there goes Coach, living for "accomplishments"... andLonghornfan that was Danielle Dilorenzo (sp?) from Survivor as his co-star? Hideous. And funny!
    Last edited by spockwhat; 12-18-2011 at 04:26 PM.

  7. #117
    FORT Fogey captain's Avatar
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    Re: 12/14 Show Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

    I can see Edna outting Coach if he makes it to the F3 and/questions about when he actually found the HII and that will change Brandon's vote
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  8. #118
    chavy chaf chaf Asteroids Champion, Bejeweled 2 Champion, GalaGalaGa Champion, Spider Solitaire Arkadium Champion, Doyu Gems Champion, Alu`s Revenge Champion, Beat The Meter Champion, BejeweledŽ 2 Action Champion, Little Protectors Champion spockwhat's Avatar
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    Re: 12/14 Show Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

    shoepie in a way I completely agree with you... but it's not always as easy as that because you're dealing with real persons with real feelings... the more you manipulate (and in Coach's case, how, by using others religious convictions) the more likely you are going to burn people, and get burned.

    arielflies I can get the desire of having a complete atheist cast... a group of people willing to put everything aside to just play a hard game with a fair jury. That'd be an interesting watch. Unfortunately, there's no controlling of emotional responses and I don't necessarily think having a group of straight atheists would completely get rid of the hurt many people are going to feel when they get lied to, etc. In any case, it would be an interesting Survivor experiment, and I'd love to see how that turned out.

  9. #119
    FORT Fogey
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    Re: 12/14 Show Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

    I don't think it necessarily even needs to be a cast of atheists, though I'd not be opposed to that. It just needs to be a cast free of people who cloak themselves in the respectability of whatever beliefs they claim to profess and then turn around and use those beliefs to excuse whatever they choose to do, regardless of whether their actions contradict them.

    I'm guessing we've had any number of people on Survivor in the past who have practiced one religion or another without making it part of their strategy, so to speak. Heck, we did this season, as I don't remember the Mormon woman--whose name is escaping me at the moment--making a huge deal out of the fact that she was Mormon, aside from asking if anyone else wanted her share of the wine because she doesn't drink. It's just that last season there was Matt and now this season Coach and Brandon, so it just seems like anyone who's devout is going to insist on everyone knowing it and supporting it, or at least pretending to, as I get the feeling Sophie takes the prayer circle stuff with a grain--perhaps even a whole pillar--of salt.

    Personally, I'd have a hard time with Coach telling me when I should be praying and expecting me to let him set the religious tone at camp, and I am a Christian. I just happen to be a Christian who believes how and when you pray ought to be up to you, and that your prayers certainly don't have to be public or shared with anyone to be sincere. They don't even have to be said aloud for you to mean them. And I would never, ever yank someone to his/her knees and demand that he/she pray with me right now. That just seems profoundly rude to me.

  10. #120
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    Re: 12/14 Show Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

    Quote Originally Posted by captain View Post
    I can see Edna outting Coach if he makes it to the F3 and/questions about when he actually found the HII and that will change Brandon's vote
    Are they allowed to talk game in the jury house? Because if they are, I could also totally see Edna outing Coach to Brandon, should he end up there with her. After all, Brandon's the one who went to Edna and clued her in as to her actual position in the pecking order, because he thought he owed her the truth. Why shouldn't she return the favor, so that he knows about the idol before he votes? Maybe it wouldn't make any difference to him, but I could see Edna believing he had the right to make his decision on information everyone else already had, as well as being ticked off at Coach.

    By the way, speaking of stupid decisions this season, wasn't it Albert who found the HII, not Coach, only he then handed it over to Coach? I'm guessing Albert doesn't think that may have been the best decision anymore.

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