5/15 Show Discussion *spoilers*

[spockwhat]

Everyone, including the jury, seems to think that Natalie was young, naive, & had no game whatsoever. I saw her a little different.
Here we had a very young girl, barely out of school, playing a physically mentally & socially difficult game against people much older, wiser & more experienced in life & relationships. In many ways she was out of her league.
The ultimate goal is to win the $$$, but in order to do that you have to reach an important secondary goal: Get to the final tribal council.
Instead of just being cannon fodder she made a day one alliance with the most experienced & competent tribemate. Rob promised to get her there if she stuck to their alliance. That was her goal - get to the end, & he offered it to her.
How many other contestants were able to do that? Certainly not the high & mighty jury members. Young & inexperienced as she was, she reached her goal & Rob got her there, just like he promised. Her strategy worked just fine, & she won an immunity or two on the way.
I wish she would have stressed this at final tribal council instead of being so passive. She used her wits, that's a plus.

Don't get the idea I would have rather seen Natalie win than Rob. No way. I just would have liked to see her get credit for some gameplay.

I have some trouble with that. You should play the game to win... otherwise, what's the point?! I have more admiration for someone who makes a big move and ends up getting cut than someone who lies on the beach picking armpit hair all day. If she knew Rob was taking her because he could beat her... well, then she should have planned on taking Rob out at some point. It would have been so easy to go to Grant, let him know Rob was voting him out and then turn the tables on Rob right then and there. That was the best opportunity to blindside. She just played for second, as did Phillip and that's FAR worse in my mind than getting voted out early because you actually tried.

Or, I guess, we should all just never try and try again. Oh, I lost, I refuse to ever play that game again. Sounds a little childish to me.

I don't blame Rob for playing again, of course he had to go for it. I blame the producers. They're ruining my show.

[Miss Scarlet]

I only read back about 5 pages, but no one else seems to have mentioned this.
Last night when Jeff was talking about next season & showing the quick pictures/clips, he said that 2 previous contestants will be returning, and at that moment a picture of Matt doing working flashed on the screen. I rewound it twice to make sure. It was pretty foggy, but it really looked like Matt to me. Blonde, male, young, slim, shaggy hair.
It makes perfect sense to me that they would bring Matt back. Obviously a fan favorite, great at challenges, game cut short twice, never gave up. He definitely made a name for himself at Redemption Island. Seeing if he learned anything about strategy from this last stint could be fun.

[spockwhat]

I was about to post the same thing. I didn't actually see Rob's first attempt at Survivor, and only part of his second attempt (I didn't watch the first few seasons at all - that was when I was too good for reality tv ), but of course, I had heard a lot about him, and a lot of it was negative. That being the case, I was surprised by what a decent guy he was on TAR. I don't think that I have seen anyone on that show treat their spouse with more respect and fewer moments of rancour.

The "is Rob nice" argument is just kind of odd to me for a couple of reasons.

First, it's a subjective term.
Second, none of us know Rob intimately.
Third, I consider myself, on the most part, to be a nice person. But I've also called certain people "idiots" behind their backs. I've also been called patronizing and cocky at times, and yet, I've also gone out my way to do good things for complete strangers, etc. Some people have called me a jerk, and some people have called me a sweetheart. Rob could be the nicest guy on the planet. He could be the biggest jerk on the planet. Who really really knows?

[Miss Scarlet]

I have some trouble with that. You should play the game to win... otherwise, what's the point?! I have more admiration for someone who makes a big move and ends up getting cut than someone who lies on the beach picking armpit hair all day. If she knew Rob was taking her because he could beat her... well, then she should have planned on taking Rob out at some point. It would have been so easy to go to Grant, let him know Rob was voting him out and then turn the tables on Rob right then and there. That was the best opportunity to blindside. She just played for second, as did Phillip and that's FAR worse in my mind than getting voted out early because you actually tried.

Plenty of winners have won simply by making it to the end. Vecepia, Amber, Natalie(Russell's first season), Jenna and many more. Bitter juries will award the prize to a passive person rather than the one they are bitter toward. Is it right? Nope, but it happens a lot.
I see it as a strategy to just get to the end.

[ironcat]

Julie's point that she hates to see girls rely so heavily on men was a good point, but poorly made. The "shame on you" stuff really was a turn off and unfortunately, her point was somewhat lost because of it. But I agree with her... I'm tired of seeing strong women immediately voted out of this game. The only women who make it now are the ones who lay low. There is something very sexist about this game. Matt said he was there to serve his God... well, one person said they were going back home to join a church and another said that they were a changed person and had a renewed faith. He may not have won the game, but he has to be ok with that.




Julie did apologize at the reunion show for the way she made her points, saying her tone had to do with the emotions of the moment. I totally agree with her points, however. If I were Phillip's son, I'd be embarrassed about how my father behaved (not to mention dressed) on the show, his work ethic aside (which she did commend). Natalie and Ashley both behaved like Rob's version of Charlie Sheen's goddesses for much of the game; Ashley wised up toward the end a little, but Natalie bought Rob's line right through his coaching her through her tribal speech, without seemingly a thought to the possibility that he might be misleading her in order to make his own case for winning better. I know they're young, but it's embarrassing to me as a woman when woman/girls behave like that, and I can see where it would be especially embarrassing to someone like Julie, who's had to work her way into a male-dominated field, to have to see the weakest, least accomplished woman in either tribe end up in the final three, still looking to Rob for her every answer (and she wasn't the only person who noticed Natalie doing that). Natalie needs to wake up and think for herself or the possibility that she could end up in a very bad situation is greater than usual for someone her age. And yeah, Rob, who manipulated Natalie for the whole game, taking her to the final only because he knew she was going to be oh so very easy to beat and working her like a marionette to the very end, has two daughters. How would he feel if someone referred to either of his girls as so sweet and then used her to further his own ends and privately thinking of her as stupid/naive in the process? How might they feel when they're older and see footage of the show? Rob always says the game is one thing and his family life is another, but it's not that easy to compartmentalize your life or your choices, and I think that's what Julie was trying to point out. Could she have said it better? Sure. But that doesn't completely negate the validity of her points. I'm actually really sorry she didn't make her points in a different way, because Natalie seemed to take the stand that she had learned she didn't have to listen to the opinions of others with regard to what Julie had said, and she really does need to rethink how easily she just follows the leads of others who appear to be likable and charming and ultimately may not have her very best interests at heart.

Oddly, I think Matt may be taking some satisfaction in the way the game turned out for the reasons you stated. I'm not a big fan of Matt's religious style myself, but I do think that in his case it was probably sincere and not a front put on for others. If it was sincere, then he likely does feel like he accomplished a lot on Survivor, and I guess I don't have a big problem with that. It's not like he forced anyone to convert or anything, and he doesn't have any control over how they behave in the future. And for all we know, he didn't talk about God 24/7. Everybody gets the edit they get. Heck, Phillip may have had some lucid moments that didn't get aired too. Natalie may even have had an independent thought--and voiced it.

Natalie at 19 is the youngest player ever on Survivor and it showed bigtime. I really don't think a lot of 19 year olds who have just graduated HS and have never been away from home would have been that much more assertive in similar circumstances, even most boys. Personally, I think they should raise the age requirement (I always thought it was 21?) because teenagers are really not mature enough to handle the complexities of Survivor, and it explained why Natalie latched onto Rob the first day and was afraid to let go. And I disagree that he didn't have her best interests at heart, he promised her he'd get her to the end if she stuck with him and he did. The fact that it was also in his best interests to do so is irrelevant. Obviously, he never promised her that he would help her win the whole game.

Regarding Grant still being bitter about Rob's betrayal, based on the fact that he appears to have changed his attitude after the first few episodes aired, I suspect it may have more to do with Grant's buddies at home giving him a hard time about how bad Rob was making him look, and that viewers were lumping all the Omes together as clueless. Yes, Rob made a bunch of smartass remarks in his PIs, but I don't recall him singling Grant out or even saying anything half as insulting as how Russell carried on. And of course Grant has every right to choose who he wants to remain friends with.

[mushybrain]

Re: Grant

Rob said in an interview that Grant stopped returning his calls after the episode where Rob switched the clues to the HII aired. If I remember correctly, Rob was really proud of himself and made some disparaging remarks about Grant. That was probably more than enough embarrassment for Grant.

[ironcat]

Re: Grant

Rob said in an interview that Grant stopped returning his calls after the episode where Rob switched the clues to the HII aired. If I remember correctly, Rob was really proud of himself and made some disparaging remarks about Grant. That was probably more than enough embarrassment for Grant.

That makes sense, although I really don't remember Rob saying anything nasty about Grant at all; in fact, Grant, and to some extent Natalie, were the only two that he never really made fun of at all to my recollection, and mostly talked about how much he actually liked them personally. Does anyone recall a specific comment?

It sounds like Grant is just pissed off that Rob was really playing him (and everyone on his tribe) from day 1 and he didn't realize it. And I still bet he got a lot of flack from his NFL buddies about it, and his ego is bruised. Hopefully, pretty wifey can soothe it.

[LovesSnowCO]

I have to comment on Julie at the FTC. I was really shocked at how vindictive and vile her speech was. I really don't understand the comment to Natalie that her parents wouldn't be proud of the way she played. Totally uncalled for, and I hope Natalie's mom gave her a good talking to at the reunion! Ditto her comment to Phil about being a father and Rob about his daughters. Message to Julie: bringing other people's parenting skills and/or children into a petty and pissy speech on a reality show is poor taste and so childish. Then again, this is the woman who hid Phil's shorts in dirt and under a rock and then laughed about it. Also the one who crowed about blindsiding Russel. If I'm supposed to admire you, Julie, it ain't happening. I hope she NEVER comes back to this game. To me, she's not a very nice person.

Oh, and Rob!!

I'm glad you said that! I was cringing when Julie said that. And did anyone noticed Rob quietly telling Natalie at FTC something like "don't worry, they'll be smiling later" or something like that? Even Rob thought Julie was being rough on Natalie... I thought it rather sweet on his part to look after her. He has said repeatedly that she was a nice person. I'm sure he didn't think she deserved that kind of talk.

I'm glad Rob won!

[Rattus]

The "is Rob nice" argument is just kind of odd to me for a couple of reasons.

First, it's a subjective term.
Second, none of us know Rob intimately.
Third, I consider myself, on the most part, to be a nice person. But I've also called certain people "idiots" behind their backs. I've also been called patronizing and cocky at times, and yet, I've also gone out my way to do good things for complete strangers, etc. Some people have called me a jerk, and some people have called me a sweetheart. Rob could be the nicest guy on the planet. He could be the biggest jerk on the planet. Who really really knows?

Agreed. My comment was basically a reaction to the "Rob is a jerk, a weasel, a liar, a manipulator [well, he certainly is that and I wish I had his skill]" school of observation. Some people are seeing that, some people are seeing his decent side. I'm seeing his decent side and prefer to base my opinion of him on that.

[lilcountriegal]

I only read back about 5 pages, but no one else seems to have mentioned this.
Last night when Jeff was talking about next season & showing the quick pictures/clips, he said that 2 previous contestants will be returning, and at that moment a picture of Matt doing working flashed on the screen. I rewound it twice to make sure. It was pretty foggy, but it really looked like Matt to me. Blonde, male, young, slim, shaggy hair.
It makes perfect sense to me that they would bring Matt back. Obviously a fan favorite, great at challenges, game cut short twice, never gave up. He definitely made a name for himself at Redemption Island. Seeing if he learned anything about strategy from this last stint could be fun.

I actually caught that too. I didnt specifically notice Matt, but it peaked my interest as to who they would be bringing back. I was hoping for a spoiler thread. if there is one, can someone point me in the right direction?