5/11 Show discussion thread ***spoilers***

[Tilden]

Someone who has been voted off twice and who has been in the actual game a total of 9 days certainly does not deserve to win over people who have not been voted off in my opinion. Say what you want about Natalie and Ashley, but they are doing something right to have stayed in the game this long.

Ashley in particular seems to be a bit more strategic and aware than I originally thought. Natalie, though she seems to have trouble forming sentences, has put herself in a good position.

At this point I'm rooting for anyone but Rob. I've just had enough of him and I hate how he's been shoved down our throats the whole season. I'd love for him to be taken out in fourth right before FTC.

As far as whether Matt's played a good enough game to win (assuming he makes it to the final, and I don't make that assumption about anyone), part of the problem is that RI has changed the game quite a bit. Under the old rules, no, he wouldn't have played the game well enough. But with RI, it's almost like two entirely different games are going on at once--one where a social game is important and one where managing alone or in a much smaller group much of the time while still keeping it together is important. Matt and Rob have both played the game they've been involved in well enough to keep moving on toward the finale, but they've been playing two separate games: RI and Survivor.

Personally, I don't think RI, as it's been constructed for this season, works. But it is what it is for this season. If Matt were to manage to survive it and get to the final, I personally wouldn't criticize him for playing the game he was dealt, but I would criticize the producers of the show for not thinking the whole RI concept through more fully. If they decided never to do an RI season again, I'd be fine with that. But if they want to do it again, they need to figure out a better way to handle the concept.

[ironcat]

As far as whether Matt's played a good enough game to win (assuming he makes it to the final, and I don't make that assumption about anyone), part of the problem is that RI has changed the game quite a bit. Under the old rules, no, he wouldn't have played the game well enough. But with RI, it's almost like two entirely different games are going on at once--one where a social game is important and one where managing alone or in a much smaller group much of the time while still keeping it together is important. Matt and Rob have both played the game they've been involved in well enough to keep moving on toward the finale, but they've been playing two separate games: RI and Survivor.

Personally, I don't think RI, as it's been constructed for this season, works. But it is what it is for this season. If Matt were to manage to survive it and get to the final, I personally wouldn't criticize him for playing the game he was dealt, but I would criticize the producers of the show for not thinking the whole RI concept through more fully. If they decided never to do an RI season again, I'd be fine with that. But if they want to do it again, they need to figure out a better way to handle the concept.

I agree with you, and I think a big part of the problem with RI is that the players are going in blind, in that they don't know the rules (who'll come back and when, duels or 3- or 4-ways), so have been unable to use RI as a factor in their strategic game; instead, they have been avoiding strategizing somewhat for fear of it backfiring on them in the form of the RI twist. I could actually see future players using RI in a strategic way by purposely putting a strong challenge competitor there with their full consent in the hopes of giving an alliance a numbers advantage up the road. But none of that could be done this season because the players learned the rules only as the game progressed.

[awesomekina23]

As far as whether Matt's played a good enough game to win (assuming he makes it to the final, and I don't make that assumption about anyone), part of the problem is that RI has changed the game quite a bit. Under the old rules, no, he wouldn't have played the game well enough. But with RI, it's almost like two entirely different games are going on at once--one where a social game is important and one where managing alone or in a much smaller group much of the time while still keeping it together is important. Matt and Rob have both played the game they've been involved in well enough to keep moving on toward the finale, but they've been playing two separate games: RI and Survivor.

Personally, I don't think RI, as it's been constructed for this season, works. But it is what it is for this season. If Matt were to manage to survive it and get to the final, I personally wouldn't criticize him for playing the game he was dealt, but I would criticize the producers of the show for not thinking the whole RI concept through more fully. If they decided never to do an RI season again, I'd be fine with that. But if they want to do it again, they need to figure out a better way to handle the concept.

I do agree about the two different games and the need for RI to be better thought out, however I disagree on Matt "playing the game he was dealt." Matt was not dealt anything. Everyone had an equal shot to stay in the game and it's his own fault that he was sent to Redemption Island. If he makes final 3, he shouldn't be rewarded for surviving on Redemption Island. He should be criticized for being sent there in the first (and second) place.

[buglover]

Does Rob still have the HII? I cannot remember if he used it or not. Aren't they supposed to use it before the end of the game?

[Tammi]

I think there are three separate games being played -- Jury House, Redemption Island, and the Island. Anything can happen on Sunday night!!

[mom2]

I am hoping Rob uses the Hidden Idol to get to the last Final, whatever it is ... 2 or 3.

[Tammi]

If Rob uses his idol, just for the sake of using it, then he is showing all his cards! His tribe trusts him and believes every breath he takes. That would be a problem at the final tribal council.

[BritLit]

Does Rob still have the HII? I cannot remember if he used it or not. Aren't they supposed to use it before the end of the game?

Rob does still have the idol--and absolutely no one knows about it. In seasons past, it couldn't be used past the "last five" tribal. With Redemption, I don't know how they're going to treat it. In one of his tweets during the show a couple of episodes back, Jeff Probst was asked about it and his reply was that Rob "can use it all the way to the end." For whatever that's worth....

I assume the first thing on Sunday will be a duel and the winner goes back to the game. That would mean a tribal council with five, so I wonder if that will be the last time it can be used.

[Bearcata]

Jeff has said that Rob can still use the HII.

[Tilden]

I do agree about the two different games and the need for RI to be better thought out, however I disagree on Matt "playing the game he was dealt." Matt was not dealt anything. Everyone had an equal shot to stay in the game and it's his own fault that he was sent to Redemption Island. If he makes final 3, he shouldn't be rewarded for surviving on Redemption Island. He should be criticized for being sent there in the first (and second) place.

Nobody in the game is dealt everything, and everyone but a very few are eventually going to end up on Redemption Island, and only one person will come back from there instead of going to the Ponderosa. If Matt can spend most of the game on RI, make it back into the game, and then make the finals, I think he can argue that even though he made mistakes, he managed to fight back from them. Certainly others can criticize him for being sent there, but they can't deny that he made the best of a bad situation if he manages to make the finals anyway, after being sent there twice. It's also hard to tell what kind of a social game he may have played there once other people arrived, since we saw so little of RI, except for the duels (which is yet another problem with the concept).

I disagree that everyone has an equal shot to stay in the game too. A lot depends on which team you end up on, what particular challenges come up, how well you're able to adapt to conditions etc. For instance, they've relied a lot on puzzle challenges this season as the mental games. We haven't yet seen a mental challenge that involves what you know about other people with whom you've been playing the game, which would have been especially interesting this season, since it would have played against the separation of the tribes agenda that's been in place since the merge.

I hadn't thought of this before either, but since most of the jury members will have been on RI, how they see RI as playing a part in the game may have something to do with how they vote, should Matt make the finals (and again, I have no idea who will make the finals--I'm not even a big Matt fan; I'm just speculating here). If they think surviving there is a comparatively big deal after having been there, or if he's impressed them because he's had a chance to interact with them on more of a small group basis, that might affect whether they'd vote for him. If they think just the opposite, then they might be reluctant to vote for him. Yet another reason RI doesn't work for viewers: we haven't any idea whether what happens there matters much in the game long term.