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Thread: Duke Lacrosse

  1. #21
    RESIDENT JEDI MASTER Stargazer's Avatar
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    Re: Duke Lacrosse

    I hope that there will be at least some young men and women out there that will see the lesson in this. I attended many rowdy fraternity parties when I was in college and I'm pretty lucky that I came out of them relatively unscathed. They are a prime location for not only sexual assault, but also the accusation of assault. When the majority of your witnesses were bombed out of their minds, its hard to know whom to believe. Maybe future students will be more thoughtful about the positions they put themselves in.
    "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."- Yoda

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  2. #22
    Leo
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    Re: Duke Lacrosse

    I wonder if Nifong could face charges himself for such blatant prosecutorial misconduct. He's already under fire from the NC bar, and could the players sue take him to court, criminal or civil?

    I heard that the legal bills for the players are around $3 million. They've been able to raise a third of that from donations, but that's still a big amount left. If I were in their place, I'd take Nifong for all he was worth just to pay my own massive bills.

  3. #23
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    Re: Duke Lacrosse

    I think you're right Leo. I wondered if some of the language that the AG used in his announcement was chosen with the desire to protect the state from any civil action.

    From a legal standpoint, I guess that the accuser is now at risk of being charged with filing a false claim with the police. It does seem to me like she was absolutely wrong in lobbing the accusations that she did, but I hope that they do not charge her. I think that the benefit that society would gain from setting the example of how wrong it is to make such serious charges against innocent people would in no way outweigh the consequence there would be in the already existing reluctance to report rapes.

    But Nifong? Throw the book at him. If he's ever able to practice law to the extent of watching The People's Court in a bar and telling a friend how he things the case should be decided, it'll be too much of a gift for him.

  4. #24
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    Re: Duke Lacrosse

    I watched the 60 Minutes piece on this case last night, and I was SO impressed with David Evans. I think that all three of the guys deserve to be commended for the way they've handled themselves through this ordeal. But David Evans really impressed me with his maturity and his character. When Leslie Stahl asked each of them if they accepted Nifong's apology, I can't say I blamed Collin Finnerty and Reede Seligman for saying it was too little too late. But when David Evans answered the same question by saying "I want to show him the respect that he did not show to me" -- wow. His parents obviously did a good job raising him.

  5. #25
    On a cupcake mission! Lois Lane's Avatar
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    Re: Duke Lacrosse

    I'm with Stargazer. This was a horrible thing that happened and I'm glad the young men were exonerated. But I'm sure there are also many rape cases where the rapists are never convicted because it is too difficult to prove they are guilty. I am not a big fan of the frat mentality, where, idiot kids just do things 'cause they want to look cool and want to fit in. Regardless of the outcome, the boys should not have been drinking and they should definitely not have hired strippers to entertain at their party and hopefully other kids will be more careful (though I doubt it--young people that age feel invincible). I know, I know--underage kids drink all the time. I just don't approve of it, especially in that kind of unsupervised setting where there is no one to hold them accountable (e.g. getting tipsy at Aunt Myrtle's dinner party).

  6. #26
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    Re: Duke Lacrosse

    What is the difference between the "these guys shouldn't have hired strippers" response to this story and the "the girl shouldn't have worn a skirt that short" argument that you hear too often (because saying it once is too often) after a rape takes place?

  7. #27
    On a cupcake mission! Lois Lane's Avatar
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    Re: Duke Lacrosse

    Quote Originally Posted by Veruka;2332803;
    What is the difference between the "these guys shouldn't have hired strippers" response to this story and the "the girl shouldn't have worn a skirt that short" argument that you hear too often (because saying it once is too often) after a rape takes place?
    You're right. A victim should not be blamed for what she wore or being a tease. And a man should NOT be accused of committing rape when he is innocent, even if he hired strippers and drank.

    My point is that you have to be responsible for your own actions. At the time this occurred, I believe the boys were underage and not of legal age to drink. The drinking age is 21 here. Is it 21 there as well? My guess is yes. So they already broke the law. Wearing a short skirt at any age isn't against the law. As for hiring strippers, the frats at my school had morality clauses and hiring strippers and/or hookers to entertain at parties was not allowed. Was it done? Not that I know of, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. But hiring strippers to entertain at a party where many of the attendees were under 21 is irresponsible at the least. You combine horny boys, alcohol, strippers--in what world is that a good/safe combination for any kids? I never said that since they did these things, they deserved the false accusation. But these boys aren't choir boys who did nothing wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veruka;2332687;
    But when David Evans answered the same question by saying "I want to show him the respect that he did not show to me" -- wow. His parents obviously did a good job raising him.
    Really? I think his lawyer did a good job of coaching him what to say. It was a classy thing for him to say but I don't believe what he said is what he meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veruka;2325744;
    But Nifong? Throw the book at him. If he's ever able to practice law to the extent of watching The People's Court in a bar and telling a friend how he things the case should be decided, it'll be too much of a gift for him.
    Agreed. Even if others didn't know better, he should have. He should've been able to view this in a fair and balanced way and NOT proceeded when the evidence was lacking. I do feel sorry that these boys were put through all this.
    Last edited by Lois Lane; 04-16-2007 at 03:11 PM.

  8. #28
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    Re: Duke Lacrosse

    Quote Originally Posted by Lois Lane;2332954;

    My point is that you have to be responsible for your own actions. At the time this occurred, I believe the boys were underage and not of legal age to drink. The drinking age is 21 here. Is it 21 there as well? My guess is yes. So they already broke the law. Wearing a short skirt at any age isn't against the law. As for hiring strippers, the frats at my school had morality clauses and hiring strippers and/or hookers to entertain at parties was not allowed. Was it done? Not that I know of, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. But hiring strippers to entertain at a party where many of the attendees were under 21 is irresponsible at the least. You combine horny boys, alcohol, strippers--in what world is that a good/safe combination for any kids? I never said that since they did these things, they deserved the false accusation. But these boys aren't choir boys who did nothing wrong.
    Is what they did smart? Not at all. But doing stupid things does not in any way justify wrongly facing rape charges - not does it mean plastering your face and name all over the national press with the words "accused rapist" associated with your name and face. Whether or not their drinking at the party was legal (some, including David Evans were over 21 anyway) is absolutely irrelevant when it comes to the issue of being falsely accused of rape. Would you dismiss a woman filing rape charges because she had 75 unpaid parking tickets? Absolutely not! It is wrong to punish stupid behavior in such a damaging and illegal manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lois Lane;2332954;
    Really? I think his lawyer did a good job of coaching him what to say. It was a classy thing for him to say but I don't believe what he said is what he meant.
    What is known about the character of David Evans to believe that his words were anything but sincere?

  9. #29
    On a cupcake mission! Lois Lane's Avatar
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    Re: Duke Lacrosse

    Quote Originally Posted by Veruka;2332986;
    What is known about the character of David Evans to believe that his words were anything but sincere?
    I'm not a mindreader and have no idea what the truth is and what he really is thinking. You stated your opinion. I stated mine. I don't get a sincere vibe from him. Because I find it difficult to believe that an innocent young man accused of rape--for over a year--would be this forgiving. He very well could be, and that's wonderful for him. I said I didn't buy it. It doesn't mean that what I believe is true. It's just my belief.

    You seem to hang onto the parts that I wrote about drinking. As I said in my post, I was responding to Stargazer's earlier post, which I thought was wise (and practical):

    I hope that there will be at least some young men and women out there that will see the lesson in this. I attended many rowdy fraternity parties when I was in college and I'm pretty lucky that I came out of them relatively unscathed. They are a prime location for not only sexual assault, but also the accusation of assault. When the majority of your witnesses were bombed out of their minds, its hard to know whom to believe. Maybe future students will be more thoughtful about the positions they put themselves in.
    I agree with her. I was expounding on her post.

    I NEVER said they deserved to be accused of rape because they were drinking (legal or otherwise) and had strippers at their party. What I said was:

    Regardless of the outcome, the boys should not have been drinking and they should definitely not have hired strippers to entertain at their party and hopefully other kids will be more careful
    Let's say that the stripper never accused any of them of rape and everyone just had fun and nothing bad happened. I would still say it's WRONG for them to have thrown this party on campus and served alcohol to minors and had strippers performing there.

    If you or anyone else served alcohol and hired strippers for a party, I would not say that any guest at the soiree/kegger SHOULD be falsely accused of rape or any crime for being there (well, other than the host if they were serving alcohol to underage kids! ).
    Last edited by Lois Lane; 04-16-2007 at 03:47 PM.

  10. #30
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    Re: Duke Lacrosse

    I don't think it's really that big of a surprise for me to state, I'm not endorsing underage drinking or irresponsible behavior either. But I have a big problem with connecting the two as a lesson in this particular instance. To me, it rings nearly identical to hearing the story of a rape similair to the one depicted in the movie "The Accused", and saying "I hope that women learn from this that they should not dress provocatively and dance around a bar seductively. That can lead to bad things happening". In either case, the lesson may be true. But to associate either with such a heinous crime is very very dangerous. Whether it's the intent or not, the connection is made that a given behavior leads to another which skates WAY too close to using one to justify the other.

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