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Thread: 7/1 Show Discussion Thread **SPOILERS**

  1. #141
    FORT Fogey graycat11's Avatar
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    Re: 7/1 Show Discussion Thread **SPOILERS**

    TopCatDC,

    I am no means an expert, not even close, I watch purely for entertainment. Evan and Randi, thought they did great yet Evan was criticized a little.

    Just thought the judges are too critical.

  2. #142
    FORT Fogey
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    Re: 7/1 Show Discussion Thread **SPOILERS**

    Quote Originally Posted by graycat11;3539992;
    I am no means an expert, not even close, I watch purely for entertainment. Evan and Randi, thought they did great yet Evan was criticized a little.
    Just thought the judges are too critical.
    Understood. (And, BTW, Evan & Randi are my favorite couple. I'm hoping we see them in the finale!)

    Often at this point in the season there are dancers that are not keeping up, or pull a dance style at which they are just no good. But last night, everyone was doing at least a more than respectable job with their routines. There were no trainwrecks. There is no one consistently dragging down his or her partner.

    So, that being said, why would the judges come down on E&R for their Broadway routine? It is a perfectly reasonable question.

    For me, the answer is that I know what that number was supposed to look like. And E&R were about 60% there. (If you want to see what Joey was going for, go to you tube and search for "Rich Man's Frug - Fosse".) So, in my estimation (and I assume the judges were thinking along the same lines) E&R fell short of the choreographer's vision.

    Now if you have never seen Fosse done, and you like what E&R did, then it is all good and there is really nothing to critique. (That's the way it was for me when Jason and Caitlin did Bollywood. I had no idea whether they were doing it correctly. I just knew I liked it.) So, it's all a matter of perspective and experience I guess.

    BTW, the same is true for Ade and Melissa's ballet. I know what Kenneth MacMillian's Romeo & Juliet balcony scene pas de duex looks like - so I can see how it was edited and "made more accessible" for the two dancers.

    The difference between the ballet and the broadway, though, is that Joey Dowling insisted on giving E&R the "real" Fosse steps, while Mr. Christensen adapted MacMillian down to A&M's abilities.

    So, what are the judges to do? If they hold the dancers up to the standard of "what was the choreographer's intentions", then E&R look like crap and A&M look like angels. Is this a judging issue or a choreography issue? That's my beef.
    Last edited by TopCatDC; 07-02-2009 at 05:28 PM.

  3. #143
    FORT Fogey srs_in_Oregon's Avatar
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    Re: 7/1 Show Discussion Thread **SPOILERS**

    I don't know what half these dances are supposed to look like, so I guess I go by what entertains me the most..someone can be technically great and ill have no idea but if they are boring as heck ill notice
    Clay Aiken "when everyones working on it change isnt impossible, its inevetible"

  4. #144
    FORT Fogey Harvest's Avatar
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    Re: 7/1 Show Discussion Thread **SPOILERS**

    Quote Originally Posted by graycat11;3539992;
    TopCatDC,
    Evan and Randi, thought they did great yet Evan was criticized a little.
    Evan did great. The judges were wrong. We didn't vote last night, but if we did I would have voted for them to save that couple from the bottom in case the judges erroneously voted Evan off since they did not seem to see what we saw. The choreography was excellent, and his chunky partner did not "get" it at all, but he moved very well. (I thought she only did well last week because the choreographer made a point of explaining the concept to her - plus last week she had a great costume.)

    They are not the only couple where I think one is holding the other back.

    We loved the goth number, think that blonde should wear her makeup etc. like that all the time!

  5. #145
    Pineapple! ClosetRTWatcher's Avatar
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    Re: 7/1 Show Discussion Thread **SPOILERS**

    I watched some "real" Fosse on YouTube and I can see the judges point, especially about the wrist movements. The more experienced Fosse I watched had a more fluid feel to it. However, I can't really say that it took anything away from my enjoyment of Evan & Randi's routine. I still really enjoyed it!

  6. #146
    FORT Fogey Harvest's Avatar
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    Re: 7/1 Show Discussion Thread **SPOILERS**

    I didn't even think the movie Chicago was very Fosse in its movements. How could anyone expect the kids on this show to get Fosse-style in a few hours? His dancers had a lot of training and discipline in precise movements that is just lacking nowadays.

  7. #147
    Living Vicariously via RT Fierce Critter's Avatar
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    Re: 7/1 Show Discussion Thread **SPOILERS**

    TopCat, I really agree with your observations.

    I think there has to be a middleground where the choreographers are concerned. I think it may have been Nigel who, in critiquing E&R's performance last week, made note of the fact that the choreography wasn't particularly difficult - but that it was INTERESTING and done WELL by the dancers. Which is what gets a couple noticed and makes them interesting and liked by the VIEWERS.

    I'm coming from the angle in that by the end of the show, the decision is being made by the VIEWERS - and we're choosing our "FAVORITE dancer."

    That doesn't always mean the most technically perfect.

    That said, I admit to a complete and total non-objective viewpoint - I absolutely am rooting 120% for Evan to win overall. I was crushed when he didn't make it to the top 20 last year.

    Why?

    Because I grew up with Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire, Cyd Charisse, etc as my favorite kind of dancing. I think there's been an abysmal lack of that sort of dancing - melding broadway/jazz/tap together (add ballroom for Fred). I'm so excited to see Evan representing that genre, a genre that I fear is being lost to the youth of today.

    As to the specific dance - I finally got to download it and watch it today. I am familiar with the Fosse style. However, I want to note a few things:

    1) This Joey chick struck me as being out for HERSELF and the style she KNOWS - and anyone who didn't like it could go screw themselves. I immediately got a vibe from her that she wasn't going to work WITH Evan and Randi. That she expected them to pull off a performance that she herself might have had to study over a period of several to many rehearsals to pull off when she was at their stage of experience.

    2) Yes, the music and the inspiration for the dance were obviously taken from the original performance from "Sweet Charity." However, I never once heard Fosse brought up in the rehearsals.

    3) It strikes me that she was trying for "inspired by" rather than "full on" "Fosse's original Rich Man's Frug from Sweet Charity."

    Not to mention, this Joey is tall as hell. The dance community looks down on (pardon the expression) and gives hell to short dancers. I sense some of that coming from her toward them.

    Shrug. I think they did a good job with probably hostile direction.

    Everyone's pretty much mirrored my observations of the rest of the dances - from distracting chains to distracting outfits (yet I did like the alien dance), to hot-cha-cha's to well done but somewhat disinteresting pas des deux's.

    (And I'll add - yes, it seems pretty obvious that the fix was in to have Melissa dance that particular dance, but I'll also echo that hell, it's only fair that she get to dance her own style at least once. I'm willing to let it slide, ya know.)

  8. #148
    FORT Fogey Misty8723's Avatar
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    Re: 7/1 Show Discussion Thread **SPOILERS**

    Quote Originally Posted by TopCatDC;3540101;
    So, that being said, why would the judges come down on E&R for their Broadway routine? It is a perfectly reasonable question.

    For me, the answer is that I know what that number was supposed to look like. And E&R were about 60% there. (If you want to see what Joey was going for, go to you tube and search for "Rich Man's Frug - Fosse".) So, in my estimation (and I assume the judges were thinking along the same lines) E&R fell short of the choreographer's vision.

    Now if you have never seen Fosse done, and you like what E&R did, then it is all good and there is really nothing to critique. (That's the way it was for me when Jason and Caitlin did Bollywood. I had no idea whether they were doing it correctly. I just knew I liked it.) So, it's all a matter of perspective and experience I guess.
    Why would a choreographer want to totally mimic the style of another choreographer? Wouldn't it be just as likely she was trying to put her own spin on Fosse's style? It made no sense to me last night when the judges were critiquing the routine, and it makes no sense to me know. They weren't doing a Fosse routine, they were doing a <whatever her name is> routine.
    If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men. - St. Francis of Assisi

  9. #149
    FORT Fogey
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    Re: 7/1 Show Discussion Thread **SPOILERS**

    Quote Originally Posted by Misty8723;3540499;
    Why would a choreographer want to totally mimic the style of another choreographer? Wouldn't it be just as likely she was trying to put her own spin on Fosse's style? It made no sense to me last night when the judges were critiquing the routine, and it makes no sense to me know. They weren't doing a Fosse routine, they were doing a <whatever her name is> routine.
    I'm sure many other people who are used to contemporary dance were thinking the same thing. In the contemp world, you build on the foundation of what has come before, or maybe you quote or pay homage to previous work, but by and large originality is prized above all.

    In classical and Broadway, with their much longer history and tradition, you train in and regularly perform the choreographic works of the "masters" in addition to original work. If you have been to the ballet, you have certainly seen the choreography of Maurice Petipa (Swan Lake, Nutcracker, Sleeping Beauty, to name just a few), George Balanchine (Prodigal Son, Slaughter on Tenth Avenue), Sir Kenneth MacMillian (Romeo & Juliet).

    On Broadway, it's just in the last twenty years or so that they have really become dedicated to preserving and reviving great dance work. The revival of Chicago in the 90's refocused the public's attention on Bob Fosse, and led to a review (Fosse) that was two hours of his best work. (If you like Broadway or jazz dance rent Fosse on Netflix immeadiately!)

    Some choreographers (notably Jerome Robbins) have guaranteed their survival by legally requiring that the original choreography be used in all subsequent productions. If you have see film or professional stage versions of Fiddler on the Roof or West Side Story (including the current revival on Broadway), you have seen dancers doing authentic Robbins dances. Ditto for A Chorus Line - all professional productions use Michael Bennet's choreography. (The film of A Chorus Line, unfortunately, did not use any of Bennett's dances.)

    All of this is to say that in the Classical and Broadway world it is perfectly acceptable, even expected, for dancers to master the great work of the past. Joey Dowling edited and rearranged the number - but the actual "steps" were Fosse original moves.

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