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Thread: 12/21 Show Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

  1. #71
    Basking in the Sun Weinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Closet Fan View Post
    I have no idea whether Santino will make it to the final three, although only the basis of storyline and talent he is probably going to run past Diana, Guadalupe, Emmett, Marla, etc., and I have no idea whether his lingerie designs were derivative or original, but it has become clear to me that he seems to be a one or two trick pony. If you look at his baby doll dress, clothes off his back design, the Barbie outfit, and his lingerie, its all about all those stupid little ruffles, bunches of gathered fabric, and its getting pretty old and redundant at this point. I'm beginning to wonder if the guy can actually tailor a dress properly to a woman's body, i.e. with darts, fitting, etc. or whether ruffles and gathered fabric is going to be it with him.

    .
    I'm not being mean, but Santino's problems probably come from the fact that he has no interest in women's bodies sexually. Now, if he were designing a spedo for Tim Gunn or Emmitt, it would probably knock your socks off. Not saying gay men can't design sexy women's clothes, but Santino seems short sighted and maybe he the thought of sexy didn't even to his mind.
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  2. #72
    FORT Fogey Brandy's Avatar
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    Closet Fan - good point she looked much better with straight hair IMO and the curly hair made her look totally different and was a bit too old fashioned for this show IMO. Not that she wasn't pretty that way too.

    Weinie I've been thikning something similar about Tim and most of the male contestants during the lingerie challenge, but didn't know how to say it. Lingerie is all about appreciation of the female form in all its forms, ages, curves, no curves, etc., there was so much the teams could've done. I found Tim's statement that black lace is only for Park Ave. 'social x rays' offensive. Daniel F's line was perfect for just what he stated - a special evening for 30-50 year old women which btw Tim is a HUGE market.

    The flounces on it etc., are just right for curvier figures too. Daniel F was really the only one IMO who designed for 'real' women. Daniel V's line wasn't bad, but again was only for 20somethings with perfect size 2-6 figures. That tight shiny fabric wouldn't do anyone past that many favors.

    I didn't hear a rule set in the challenge for "young and modern" like Tim said Daniel F's line wasn't, so I felt that was unfair to penalise him for it. I think the show should have more of an open mind. The 'other board' is almost in mutiny about Daniel F's ousting too for the same or similar reasons. I love that Daniel F's are near the top of "Rate the Runway" and Santino's are dead last, too. Bwa ha.

    Santino's comment that Team Diana "has never had sex in their lives" was ironic since if he meant that they'd design something sexless, well he did, even more so, after all he doesn't seem to see a woman's body as sexy either, or romantic or gorgeous, which lingerie should be. His line would make women look and feel like freaks, IMO. Diana's wasn't much better, her aesthetic is too detached for something as emotional as lingerie IMO. Well I hope next show's better but judging from the glimpses in the teasers, I'm afraid.
    Last edited by Brandy; 12-25-2005 at 04:12 PM.

  3. #73
    Read The Clue Bearcata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Closet Fan View Post
    Courtesy of Tivo, the greatest thing since sliced bread, the blurb at the end of the program is:



    Bearcata: while I was watching this episode for the first time, I was thinking "geez, Santino is as obnoxious as Wendy Pepper, if not more so!" You're right, there's less outrage about his behavior in part because he's talented (whereas Wendy was not, and people were outraged that she advanced far beyond what her creativity and skills warranted, due to the plot line she provided). Even though both he and Wendy are clearly obnoxious human beings, I think part of the difference also is because her obnoxiousness was more calculated, deliberate even, and more underhanded, whereas I believe Santino's is completely spontaneous obnoxiousness. He's a jerk who has no control over his poorer impulses, and no desire to control same, hence his egotistical whinings, the eye rolling, the juvenile temper tantrums when the teacher doesn't give him a gold star. Wendy by contrast, sucks up to Kevin during the group challenge, thereby setting him up to slam him during Q&A. During Fashion Week, Wendy asks Kara Saun if she is going to room with her during in a way which indicates to me that she did it deliberately to needle her.

    (Speaking of Wendy, I caught her on the Bravo celebrity poker challenge right after this episode -- she won, for those who are curious -- but I was laughing, because only Wendy could manage to make basic black look so damn frumpy and middle aged.)

    Santino is incredibly arrogant and conceited, not to mention temperamental and childish, as well as meanspirited. I suspect he was probably a bully as a child, and it it all rooted in deep seated feelings of insecurity and jealousy. He was a jerk to Nick for winning the Barbie challenge, and even attributed part of that win to having helped Nick, but it just proved that his downfall (and whatever point he's eliminated) is going to be because he just doesn't get it. At the point we saw him helping Nick, the dress was largely done. What he didn't get is that Nick basically won that challenge right at the beginning, through his intuitive understanding of the marketing needs. Nick said he was thinking of what the doll would look like in the box, and how to make it jump out at the buying customer, and chose bright, vivid colors and a festive design to catch a young girl's eye.

    I have no idea whether Santino will make it to the final three, although only the basis of storyline and talent he is probably going to run past Diana, Guadalupe, Emmett, Marla, etc., and I have no idea whether his lingerie designs were derivative or original, but it has become clear to me that he seems to be a one or two trick pony. If you look at his baby doll dress, clothes off his back design, the Barbie outfit, and his lingerie, its all about all those stupid little ruffles, bunches of gathered fabric, and its getting pretty old and redundant at this point. I'm beginning to wonder if the guy can actually tailor a dress properly to a woman's body, i.e. with darts, fitting, etc. or whether ruffles and gathered fabric is going to be it with him.

    As for the comment(s) he made about Emmett on the runway which prompted Heidi's cowardly comment, it seems clear to me that the specific thing he said on that score (aside from the "I would eliminate Emmett") was editted out, either on the basis of time, or because it was incredibly nasty. Someone here said he went on a 90 minute rant, where did that come from? Tim's blog? I could totally see him going off on the Emmett issue, although whether he'd be allowed to go on at that great length, I wonder about. But I'm convinced there was more to it than we saw, a lot more. And Heidi was right, he was cowardly, and he clearly blames everyone but himself: it was the judges fault for "not getting it", it was Emmett's fault for not being able to sew and understand what he wanted, it was Nina's fault for not getting how original he really was and understanding his artistic vision, etc. Never his own fault.
    I love the way you write up your comments. They are clear, consise and very detailed. I wish I could do half as well.

    Regarding Wendy Pepper. I loved how open and revealing she was in the confessionals, I just never thought she had the 'slyness', 'smarts' to pull of all the strategy that she wanted to. That's why I never took her too seriously as the villan. I never hated her as some other posters did, I just enjoyed her drama. I do think that Santino has much more 'street smarts' than Wendy did and is much more calculating. He is also much more a verbal assault artist.

    Emmett did say one thing during the episode that made me pay much more attention to Santino's work. He likes to add alot of embellishments. That explains all the ruffles etc... Can he make a simple dress and have it stand on its on just based on its line, drape, cut, shilouette??? Well he hasn't shown us that side of him yet.

  4. #74
    FORT Regular alphacat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandy View Post
    I found Tim's statement that black lace is only for Park Ave. 'social x rays' offensive. Daniel F's line was perfect for just what he stated - a special evening for 30-50 year old women which btw Tim is a HUGE market.

    I didn't hear a rule set in the challenge for "young and modern" like Tim said Daniel F's line wasn't, so I felt that was unfair to penalise him for it.
    Lace is tough, I think. In this challenge, it needed to be pretty but not too sweet, sexy and sophisticated, light and flowy, and not tableclothy (thanks for the new word, Michael Kors). I read through some of the reviews of the September runway shows, which used a fair amount of lace--some designers really did it well, others didn't and got slammed.

    I don't know that Tim was dissing all black lace as much as not liking the one that Daniel chose. I actually thought that Daniel's sketch was really lovely, but I didn't like his final products. I didn't really like the lace--it wasn't as pretty as it could have been and looked like it would be scratchy. The skirt parts were fine--I liked the tiers and flowiness, but they were basically the same length--he could have had short, mid-length, and long to mix it up a bit. I really didn't like the tops at all--I didn't think they were particularly flattering. I agree that they were more wearable for more people, but I felt like I could find that look anywhere.

    ITA agree that it wasn't fair to penalize him for not doing the "young" thing, when that wasn't specified. I think Daniel should have lost the "honeymoon" part of his description--he should have stuck with "a woman who is 30-50 years old who wants to have a special night" or something like that. I think the "honeymoon" thing made people think "young"--I know Heidi had just gotten married and people get married older these days, but ....

  5. #75
    Samantha's Mommy Closet Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weinie View Post
    I'm not being mean, but Santino's problems probably come from the fact that he has no interest in women's bodies sexually. Now, if he were designing a spedo for Tim Gunn or Emmitt, it would probably knock your socks off. Not saying gay men can't design sexy women's clothes, but Santino seems short sighted and maybe he the thought of sexy didn't even to his mind.
    You may well be right, although Austin clearly isn't interested in women in a sexual way (other than wanting to be one, I suppose) but he made some beautiful, flattering, form fitting outfits that accentuated the models' femininity and their feminine allure. I was actually looking at his choice of ensembles from a seamstress' point of view, someone who has worked with patterns, altering patterns, quilting, etc.

    If you look at Santino's baby doll dress, no sleeves is the first way to avoid fitting issues, the high waist and lots of gathering, the uneven hem, are all ways to avoid having to deal with fitting. For the second dress, using the zipper up the front is a time saving method, admittedly, but its also a way of avoiding fitting the waist. Likewise with the poofiness on the side of the hips and the behind, and the gathering on the bodice front. As for the Barbie dress, at first I thought he had more gathers around the pinkish midriff section, then I realized that it was actually stretch fabric, and I'm not absolutely sure that a well fitted dress wouldn't have had fewer rippling lines over her midriff, I think it should have looked smoother. The purple detailing around the breasts and shoulders looks like it might have just been gathered slightly, sewn into the seams and then tied in front (again, no fitting). Oh, and I just noticed all the loose threads hanging from the ruffles on the bottom, if I can see it from the Tivo recording, you can bet the judges didn't miss that, either.

    To be fair to Santino, of the three dreadful outfits his team spawned, his was the best of the bunch, and Emmett's was by far the worst. To be fair to Nick, he probably could have come up with some awesome ensembles, but he did try to stick to Santino's aesthetic, which was hokey, to say the least.

    As for Daniel F's efforts in the Team Lingerie challenge, I didn't hear anything in the assignment that restricted the lingerie to any certain age group or demographic, even though IMHO it was clear that the producers would have been quite happy with the models prancing down the catwalk with as little clothing on as possible. That being said, however, when Daniel made his presentation to Heidi, he talked about fiances and newlyweds, lovemaking, and said he thought about Heidi. His drawings also did not convey the 30 - 50 demographic. He never mentioned targetting older people until AFTER Tim told him it was very Joan Collins, so I suspect that was an afterthought, a tactical effort on his part to make the older look of his collection seem deliberate rather than dowdy. Problem was, that wasn't what he sold to Heidi, and everybody, including Tim and the judges, knew it.

  6. #76
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    Santino's comment to the judges that they didn't "get" his designs because it's "Supposed to be taken off"...is stupid and degrading. Dang... I wouldn't wear his designs simply because they look hideous and look too complicated to get off (lol)

    Sadly, Daniel's collection was too similar - his were the only ones I'd consider purchasing. They actually look wearable and "removable" if the mood strikes.

  7. #77
    Dreamer rt1ky's Avatar
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    Closet Fan,
    I like your analysis.

  8. #78
    FORT Fogey Brandy's Avatar
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    baxpup, plus, not all women wear lingerie "to be taken off" i.e. for sexual reasons. They like to feel pretty just as often and if he's thinking they all want to look like someone in the window of an Amsterdam red light district bordello he's wrong.

    Kind of looks like Kit Kat Club 2015 meets Toluca dinner theater production of Cats.

  9. #79
    Hook 'em Horns! muggle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weinie View Post
    I'm not being mean, but Santino's problems probably come from the fact that he has no interest in women's bodies sexually. Now, if he were designing a spedo for Tim Gunn or Emmitt, it would probably knock your socks off. Not saying gay men can't design sexy women's clothes, but Santino seems short sighted and maybe he the thought of sexy didn't even to his mind.
    This is precisely what I said in the beginning of this thread. It was just so ironic that he'd be chastising a team of women for not having had sex and the impact that it would make on their ability to design lingerie, meanwhile, he's not exactly familiar with sex with a woman in his lifetime either (or anyone on his team for that matter). It was such a stupid statemnt.
    Support bacteria -- it's the only culture some people have.

  10. #80
    FORT Fogey Brandy's Avatar
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    Maybe lingerie is one thing where you have got to find the female form beautiful... not necessarily sexual but beautiful. So often in fashion I think it is more of an artistic statement about the design itself, and not really made for real women's bodies... but lingerie is something that you would want to sell to many women. Cos you can't really charge $5000 for a teddy. (Well, some places do but I don't think they'd like Santino's designs either - and those are one-off made to fit).

    I can see Nick designing something a woman would feel good in... he admired his mother dressing up for those parties. But Santino? I think he's a designer for whom a woman's body is an abstract.

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