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Thread: 10/4 Show Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

  1. #61
    Who-dat Runway victim's Avatar
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    Great interview with Michael Knight on Andy's blog-

    http://www.bravotv.com/blog/andysblo...ght.php?page=1

    EW has the PR designer agreement concerning what they are allowed to bring.

    http://popwatch.ew.com/popwatch/2006...t_runway_.html
    Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. -Albert Einstein

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  2. #62
    Magical Elf MFWalkoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RubyRed View Post
    Loved it that Laura stuck up for Jeffrey in the Mom challenge too. It's an unpopular opinion and I'll offer mine own. Angela's Mom acted as if she had paid him to make the dress. I'm sure she was not the only person who didn't like what had been designed for her, but others didn't say anything because they understood it was not about them, but it was about the designer's creations. And did it work, or not work? But yes, Jeffrey was a little paranoid in believing he was being set up, but a little understandable under the conditions. I hear a lot of people say "what you do do if that was your Mother", but I'll turn it around and ask what would you do if the mother of a person you had been fighting with trashed your design a couple of hours before show time, and then insults it further on the runway. Maybe handled it a little more tactfully that Jeffrey I hope, but no one would be too pleased with that mother.
    That animosity happened after he basically threw her out of the workroom. And I don't think she was taking things too personally, although she was clearly the most self-conscious of the mothers. She had reason to be concerned from the start:

    - She gave Jeffrey two different favorite colors (purple and green) which he quickly rejected and bought the powder blue, which if he had consulted he would have learned she owns nothing in that color and doesn't like it.

    - The only reason Tim heard her concerns before Jeffrey did is that Tim bothered to ask. Part of having a client in a challenge is communicating with them and making them feel comfortable. If they're difficult, it doesn't mean you're excused from trying.

    - Jeffrey's lack of common human decency with her in general was inexcusable. He was pointedly rude, insulting and dismissive. I don't care if he thought he was doing it to defend himself; if that's the only way he knows how, then he deserves what he gets. And he knew the garment he was making for her was hideous, he should have gone home for it. He took glee in its hideousness, which is an insult not only to her but the integrity of the show.

    Angela was a flake and her mom was one too, but that's no excuse. They didn't get ornery until he started up with is brand of evil.
    "Whatever you are, be a good one." Abraham Lincoln

  3. #63
    It Just Is. RubyRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFWalkoff View Post
    That animosity happened after he basically threw her out of the workroom. And I don't think she was taking things too personally, although she was clearly the most self-conscious of the mothers. She had reason to be concerned from the start:

    - She gave Jeffrey two different favorite colors (purple and green) which he quickly rejected and bought the powder blue, which if he had consulted he would have learned she owns nothing in that color and doesn't like it.

    - The only reason Tim heard her concerns before Jeffrey did is that Tim bothered to ask. Part of having a client in a challenge is communicating with them and making them feel comfortable. If they're difficult, it doesn't mean you're excused from trying.

    - Jeffrey's lack of common human decency with her in general was inexcusable. He was pointedly rude, insulting and dismissive. I don't care if he thought he was doing it to defend himself; if that's the only way he knows how, then he deserves what he gets. And he knew the garment he was making for her was hideous, he should have gone home for it. He took glee in its hideousness, which is an insult not only to her but the integrity of the show.

    Angela was a flake and her mom was one too, but that's no excuse. They didn't get ornery until he started up with is brand of evil.

    Well, all right. You have your opinion and I have mine. But you'll never convince me the Mom episode showed Jeffrey's "brand of evil." Please.

    There was more to this story...I read Tim Gunn's Blog, saw a little more footage on the PR site which gave me the opinion Angel's Mom was a problem, especially a problem for Jeffrey because her daughter and he did not get along at all.

    As far as the challenge goes Jeffrey did choose the colors she wanted - navy blue and purple - if I remember correctly. It was the periwinkle blue that caused a storm of controversy. I believe it's the designer's job and choice to experiment, take a risk and choose something a client might not have considered. Like the way Kayne did in choosing a lavender color for the Miss America dress, instead of an earth tone as Miss America had asked. Kayne thought of something she had not considered and she loved it. Angela's mother hated the blue even though she had never even tried the color (In her own words) Also, Robert did exactly what his client wanted and got kicked off for his trouble. I thought the colors were great. The only problem I had with the dress was that it was a glorified MuuMuu.

    I also have a hunch Laura defended Jeffrey becuase her mother probably hated the dress Angelia designed for her but she choice to go with it, work it on the runway and not complain and say "it's something I would never wear" even though it likely was.

  4. #64
    Magical Elf MFWalkoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RubyRed View Post
    As far as the challenge goes Jeffrey did choose the colors she wanted - navy blue and purple - if I remember correctly.
    Actually, he tells Tim in the episode when he shows him the blue fabrics that she had told him her colors were purple and green, but he found that unworkable and went with his blue choices instead.

    I saw the extra footage and read the blog and listen to the podcasts also, and they inform my opinion as well. Angela started getting ornery and calculating with Jeffrey, most definitely, but it wasn't until after he had made her mom cry. And really, even if she was difficult, you really have to try to make a woman cry over a quickly made dress. He said and did everything one would need to do to make that happen, it wasn't as if she cried like a tick over nothing...that part is undefendable IMO. You just aren't that disrespectful to someone's mother, especially if part of your objective is to make them satisfied enough to sing your praises in a competition. Unless you get off on being that harsh to people, which I don't discount when it comes to Jeffrey. But I don't know him or have a psychiatry degree, I'm just going on what I saw like anyone else...
    "Whatever you are, be a good one." Abraham Lincoln

  5. #65
    Charmed n' Dangerous tumblin' dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgal26 View Post
    I did feel bad for Darlene and, initially, Angela after watching that episode. But it really bugged me last night when after being asked if people have been recognizing her since the show, Angela said nothing about her designs but instead jumped on how everyone's been so sympathetic to her after the "Mom" episode. I felt like it was just a way of saying, "see, everyone else agrees with me."

    Also, I really think Jeffrey just says things... perhaps unintenionally.... in a very non-tactful way. At one point when talking to Darlene, he said something like, "Maybe other people see things in you that are beautiful that you don't see" - which I thought was a very nice thing to say - but then he had to follow it up with "what do you think of that?!" and something about her being insecure.
    I think that's what a lot of people don't recognize about Angela - she's really a very manipulative person. In what you mentioned, above, she made sure she said this happened in LA, where Jeffrey lives - as if all of LA is on her side. And she also said people were very sympathetic to her, which she "loved." That's the response of someone who goes through life being the "victim" of everything that happens - while never admitting to her own culpability. She loves the sympathy. Yeah, I don't doubt it. I'm sure she feeds on it, and the apple don't fall far from the tree.

    Angela reminds me of someone who stopped maturing at about age 12 and stayed there. She pouts like a 12-year-old (did anyone else notice how many times she stuck out her lower lip?) and she designs for little girls, basically - not grown women. When Tim said "this looks Holly Hobby" she was thrilled... did she not realize it wasn't a compliment?
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  6. #66
    Luscious Pichus Pookipichu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tumblin' dice View Post
    I think that's what a lot of people don't recognize about Angela - she's really a very manipulative person. In what you mentioned, above, she made sure she said this happened in LA, where Jeffrey lives - as if all of LA is on her side. And she also said people were very sympathetic to her, which she "loved." That's the response of someone who goes through life being the "victim" of everything that happens - while never admitting to her own culpability. She loves the sympathy. Yeah, I don't doubt it. I'm sure she feeds on it, and the apple don't fall far from the tree.

    Angela reminds me of someone who stopped maturing at about age 12 and stayed there. She pouts like a 12-year-old (did anyone else notice how many times she stuck out her lower lip?) and she designs for little girls, basically - not grown women. When Tim said "this looks Holly Hobby" she was thrilled... did she not realize it wasn't a compliment?
    I don't think Angela is any more manipulative than any of the other contestants. Your statement suggests you know her personally.

    Yes, she does display a certain immaturity, because she is relatively young, she doesn't live in LA or NY and has a sort of wide eyed child-like quality mixed with moments of collicky fits of temperament.

    However, at no point did I find her malevolent, unlike Jeffrey.

    His comments, "feminazi", his disregard for the females on the show, his inability to let go of perceived grudges/feuds, his preying upon the weakest designer, his inability to apologize for making someone's mother cry, his delusions that he is "the only real designer" or the only one doing such and such correctly, the only one with real talent, etc..., his poseurish Hot Topic/emo high school fashion, his general low level animosity, his really inappropriate comment about Laura's health, and so forth, do not paint a picture of someone accepting responsbility for his culpability.

    All in all, I find his actions deplorable in the mother challenge. Treating other people with civility and courtesy is a mark of humanity. As a designer, and contestant his job was "to make it work". He could have used his creativity to incorporate green trim, purple trim, lining, etc. using the colors that the client likes. Instead he disregarded her at different turns, displaying disdain. He has proven throughout the show to apply revisionist history to his actions, e.g. "I didn't have an opportunity to apologize to her", "I don't have time to make a jacket". In any event, even after shutting Angela's mother down, he could have smoothed things over with a simple apology, rather than banishing her from the workroom and escalating.

    Not taking responsibility for his actions, not owning up to the reality of situations and generally being a really mean individual are not things to be proud of. REGARDLESS of whether Angela's mother was 10, 20 or 80% culpable.


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  7. #67
    Charmed n' Dangerous tumblin' dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookipichu View Post
    I don't think Angela is any more manipulative than any of the other contestants. Your statement suggests you know her personally.

    Yes, she does display a certain immaturity, because she is relatively young, she doesn't live in LA or NY and has a sort of wide eyed child-like quality mixed with moments of collicky fits of temperament.

    However, at no point did I find her malevolent, unlike Jeffrey.

    His comments, "feminazi", his disregard for the females on the show, his inability to let go of perceived grudges/feuds, his preying upon the weakest designer, his inability to apologize for making someone's mother cry, his delusions that he is "the only real designer" or the only one doing such and such correctly, the only one with real talent, etc..., his poseurish Hot Topic/emo high school fashion, his general low level animosity, his really inappropriate comment about Laura's health, and so forth, do not paint a picture of someone accepting responsbility for his culpability.
    My statements show careful observation - that's all. I don't know Angela - I just observe her, and read what Tim's blogs have to say about her. (Like the one where Tim says Angela escalated that entire episode with her mother.)

    And yes, I love how Jeffrey showed disregard for the females on the show - like when he took care of Marilinda when she was about to faint, held her hand, got her a chair, etc. It's also interesting that his best friend on the show was a woman (Alison) and that he and Uli are so close.

    Wide-eyed, childlike isn't going to last long in the fashion business... and neither is pouting, "I'm-the-victim" manipulativeness. Give the girl a pacifier and send her ass packin' back to the farm. She and her mother can discuss how mean the world is to them - totally disregarding what THEY do to bring it on in the first place.

    Isn't it interesting that the only two people in the show who had to be asked to step away from the designing tables were Angela's mother and Angela, herself, with Vincent? There's a common thread there... hmm... what could it be... I don't know - that they're both "victims" in this big bad world? Wahhhhh....
    The thieves get rich, the saints get shot-
    And god don't answer prayers a lot.

    -Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip

  8. #68
    Magical Elf MFWalkoff's Avatar
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    I don't dispute that Angela is manipulative, and that she loves to play the victim. I couldn't stand her while she was on the show. But where there's a victim, there's usually a culprit. Jeffrey took the bait, but that doesn't reclassify his actions as OK or funny. He was still needlessly cruel to an elder woman, which is the real reason this remains such a memorably notorious part of the season.
    "Whatever you are, be a good one." Abraham Lincoln

  9. #69
    Luscious Pichus Pookipichu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tumblin' dice View Post
    My statements show careful observation - that's all. I don't know Angela - I just observe her, and read what Tim's blogs have to say about her. (Like the one where Tim says Angela escalated that entire episode with her mother.)

    And yes, I love how Jeffrey showed disregard for the females on the show - like when he took care of Marilinda when she was about to faint, held her hand, got her a chair, etc. It's also interesting that his best friend on the show was a woman (Alison) and that he and Uli are so close.

    Wide-eyed, childlike isn't going to last long in the fashion business... and neither is pouting, "I'm-the-victim" manipulativeness. Give the girl a pacifier and send her ass packin' back to the farm. She and her mother can discuss how mean the world is to them - totally disregarding what THEY do to bring it on in the first place.

    Isn't it interesting that the only two people in the show who had to be asked to step away from the designing tables were Angela's mother and Angela, herself, with Vincent? There's a common thread there... hmm... what could it be... I don't know - that they're both "victims" in this big bad world? Wahhhhh....
    I am not saying Angela is faultless, nor am I even remotely a fan or Angela. Angela however, is much younger, has been a target of Jeffrey and just witnessed her mother being mistreated by Jeffrey. Given the circumstances, it is easier for Jeffrey to have been the better person and act professional. He did not.

    Secondly, Alison's affection for Keith and Jeffrey, the two male loners of the group is hardly any indication of their respect or love for women. Tellingly, she didn't get along with any of the other women. Weird personalities flock together. Jeffrey's apparent ability to tolerate one woman does not negate his overall disrespect of women. That's like the people who say they are not rascist because they know someone of a different ethnic background and they can talk without him ripping the person's limbs off.

    All in all, just painting Angela as unlikable, or manipulative does not redeem Jeffrey's actions.

    PS- I don't know Jeffrey, perhaps he is a wonderful sweet person who is respectful of the female gender but I personally thought the term "feminazi" was beyond tasteless and it went all downhill from there.
    Last edited by Pookipichu; 10-06-2006 at 01:52 PM.


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  10. #70
    FORT Fan fairyprincess's Avatar
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    [QUOTE/...
    Don't throw stuff at me, but I don't think Jeffery was wrong in whole Angela's mother thing. She was an unstable lady who I think would be offended easily. Jeffery's frustration was understandable. He didn't necessarily handle it the best, but he's not totally at fault either!

    Glad Michael won fan favorite! I think he has a great career ahead of him. Also glad that Malan is doing so well. I would have liked to hear more from other designers about what they're doing now.[/QUOTE]






    The bottom line on the Jeffrey thing and I think everyone will agree, is that we saw such a SMALL portion of what actually occurred, it is very hard to base our opinions on whether it was Angela's mother's fault or Jeffrey's fault. I can see both sides here and think they BOTH probably were under stress and reacted badly. However, again, we did not see ALL of what the mother or ALL of what Jeffrey went through, so it's hard to judge.

    And I was also VERY happy that Michael was the fan favorite.....I know he was MY favorite!!

    FP

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