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Thread: 2/23 Finale Show Discussion **Spoilers**

  1. #151
    FORT Newbie The Modernaire's Avatar
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    Not that it matters much...

    But! I TiVo'd the epi, watched it again, and you know what? If I were set to be at Fashion Week as a designer for The First Time, and was told mere hours beforehand that my shoes were in violation of the contract I signed, I'd flip out. Majorly flip the F out. As in, I've not only designed the current shoes, but they're a big part of my collection, and with hours to go, I have to dig through a box of shoes that I don't have time to test with the models before the show.

    Seriously, if Kara Saun knew that she was in violation of the contract/agreement, would she have been as open about having her friend not only get the shoes made, but then actually SHOW UP with them for all to see?
    Would she have told Tim how, where, and how much ('gra-TIS'!) they came to be in her possession? Again, for someone who was dealt a potentially HUGE blow (as it was, some of the dresses were too long even WITH heels) she handled it well, all things considered - including Wendy's smirk laced opinion. (She took that opportunity to milk that for all it was worth) I wonder if the show's editor left out any comments Kara Saun may have had when the MK shoes arrived, (as in - "Hmm..those are nice, but my shoes are on their way") any questions Jay & Wendy may have had when she wasn't among them fishing through the box...

    After watching the show, seeing her designs, and then hearing her comment about feeling 'penalized' for designing (the shoes), I just can't wrap my head around her knowingly 'cheating'.

    She flipped out (as muted as that was) by 'not letting it go' because it's not like she had a month to replace them - the runway show was hours away. Glad she was able to get the option of not having them 'considered'.
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  2. #152
    FORT Fogey Harvest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Modernaire
    After watching the show, seeing her designs, and then hearing her comment about feeling 'penalized' for designing (the shoes), I just can't wrap my head around her knowingly 'cheating'.
    Um, the tone of Kara's voice when she got on the phone with her shoe guy and said "Don't speak, just listen," showed that she knew she was cheating. Her tone that clearly conveyed she was about to instruct him to do something shady and she did not want to have to spell it out for him since she was in front of everyone and being taped. But the evil message came across loud and clear, and anyone with half a brain saw Kara's true colors at that point. (Why, btw, did I see so many pro-Kara on the official Bravo site? Guess we must be smarter over here, or maybe her family is posing as regular viewers and posting over there!)

    That she could still act all self-righteous and as if she were completely without sin just shows how psychotic she is (defined as a complete lack of contact with reality -- although my husband said that kind of self-important delusion is why she is able to survive in Hollywood!) It is her inability to admit what a rotten person she is that makes her throw stones at other people -- and also makes her act as if she doesn't know she's cheating.

    All through the series, in contrast, it was Jay's ability to admit when he had been wrong about something that kept endearing him to the audience after his snark-fits (well, that and he is very funny -- yeah I've said that before.)

    Btw, does anyone know what Jay's "porn" job was? They mentioned that once and did not elaborate, so I don't even know if his job was to design "costumes" for a website or what, lol Since the show said he's gay, I hope he wasn't on the website a la Jeff Gannon, if you catch the reference. Not trying to judge or offend, just wondering since they brought it up.

  3. #153
    FORT Fogey Harvest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pillbeam
    I kept wondering what Tim was thinking as he was walking in his elegant black garb toward Jay's track house in the middle of nowhere. Is Tim, the ultimate sophisticate, from a small town himself? Tim is certainly good natured enough to go anywhere on this show.
    Tim cetainly did come up smelling like a rose in the finale. At the start of the series I wasn't sure if I'd like him, but as the show went on he both showed his expertise and got more comfortable with being on camera. I liked him more and more, and the last episode most of all.

    As for your great word choice, "sophisticate," I feel that a mark of true sophistication is having the grace to feel at home anywhere, and to make anyone feel at home with you, so good for Tim

  4. #154
    FORT Newbie Atnasmai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Modernaire
    After watching the show, seeing her designs, and then hearing her comment about feeling 'penalized' for designing (the shoes), I just can't wrap my head around her knowingly 'cheating'.
    She didn't knowingly cheat. I read through this thread and if someone accused her of knowingly breaking her contract, I missed it.

    I can appreciate that it must have been a devastating blow to think her shoes could be taken away, and she was acting to save herself. But she never seemed to understand why it was questionable ethics. Even after they reminded her the contract she signed specifically disallowed her from accepting favors that enhanced her collection, she refused to believe she did anything wrong. Ignorance of what you signed isn't an excuse. Her reaction wasn't, "Oh, I didn't realize that" or "Oh, I forgot"; it was, "But they gave them to me!" which just sounds like she's trying to duck responsibility.

  5. #155
    Devil Woman CourtneyLove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Modernaire
    But! I TiVo'd the epi, watched it again, and you know what? If I were set to be at Fashion Week as a designer for The First Time, and was told mere hours beforehand that my shoes were in violation of the contract I signed, I'd flip out. Majorly flip the F out. As in, I've not only designed the current shoes, but they're a big part of my collection, and with hours to go, I have to dig through a box of shoes that I don't have time to test with the models before the show.

    Seriously, if Kara Saun knew that she was in violation of the contract/agreement, would she have been as open about having her friend not only get the shoes made, but then actually SHOW UP with them for all to see?
    Would she have told Tim how, where, and how much ('gra-TIS'!) they came to be in her possession? Again, for someone who was dealt a potentially HUGE blow (as it was, some of the dresses were too long even WITH heels) she handled it well, all things considered - including Wendy's smirk laced opinion. (She took that opportunity to milk that for all it was worth) I wonder if the show's editor left out any comments Kara Saun may have had when the MK shoes arrived, (as in - "Hmm..those are nice, but my shoes are on their way") any questions Jay & Wendy may have had when she wasn't among them fishing through the box...

    After watching the show, seeing her designs, and then hearing her comment about feeling 'penalized' for designing (the shoes), I just can't wrap my head around her knowingly 'cheating'.

    She flipped out (as muted as that was) by 'not letting it go' because it's not like she had a month to replace them - the runway show was hours away. Glad she was able to get the option of not having them 'considered'.

    I'm glad I read through all the replies before making mine, because I basically would have copied what you said, and appeared foolish. I cannot believe that no one seems to understand that if, a few HOURS before the biggest professional day of your life were about to happen, that an enormous part of your design wasn't eligible, most people would go ballistic. I think Kara handled it well, and I'm so surprised by the way people saw this. I still don't get it, I mean I understand in theory that it is definitely an edge for Kara to have had industry help, but she designed the shoes! I could understand totally if she just bought in some 2000 dollar a pair manolos and said "ha! nice having friends" but she designed the shoes, they were her work.

    It seems to me a weird detail that wasn't driven home, like it had never come up before, and while I think the producers' compromise was a fair one given the circumstances, I'm surprised by the number of posts that start "well I used to like Kara.." and compare this "shoegate" event to the full on grotesque, premeditated manipulations of Wendy as similar or worse. When Kara called her friend and told him not to speak, I took it as a time constraint problem, like she didn't have time to talk, but I guess if you're looking for darkness you can find it. Maybe she was somehow trying to pull a fast one. on a speakerphone. infront of a camera. that was recording.

    Kara was a wonderful designer the whole show, who was nice and decent (I didn't see anyone else helping Wendy with her makeup, or offering Jay advice that they thought would help or going out of their way to be friendly), so I just don't understand why Kara is given such little leeway. It seems almost like some people were just waiting for her to fail, like when Jay said made his comment about little miss perfect getting busted. Some friend...

    Loved the show, loved Austin and Jay, and I think Jay should have won because he needed more help to get things going, possibly more encouragement and his final collection was wonderful, but it's a weird thing reality shows, and how we all see them.

    Austin made the show for me, and I am positive they'll do season 2, this show was just too good.

    Was nice seeing Ann from Top Model, just wish she hadn't worn that shirt she wore so often on the show, thats how I recognized her, lol.

    Good Times, Good Times.
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  6. #156
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    I've been reading the posts for several days and decided to chime in. Hate, hate, hate Wendy. Perhaps even moreso after seeing how "normal" she is in her own hometown environment. "Evil, Conniving Wendy" obviously was a chosen personality, just part of the strategy she employed to win the game. ("Wendy, this isn't Survivor!!!" thank you Jay) What really angered me is that Wendy picked it right up when they all met again at the hotel. I don't blame Kara Saun for not wanting to deal with her. I wouldn't want to, either. Why willingly expose yourself to that kind of conniving and negativity?

    Why couldn't Wendy just rely on her talent to win? Oh that's right, she barely has any.

    I agree with the above post-er who pointed out the timeline. Kara Saun was presented with this dilemma just hours before the show. Ethical issues aside, I'd be freakin' out, too. Any professional wants to have the details nailed down well in advance of a major event such as this.

  7. #157
    Fight Queen corprip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harvest
    Since the show said he's gay, I hope he wasn't on the website a la Jeff Gannon, if you catch the reference.
    YES! I LOVE YOU HARVEST!

    Even the good people at Fleshbot have been unable to track down Jay McCarroll's porn past. Although they do give him big-ups for his "sissybear" hotness.

    Let me add about the whole Kara thing. She read and signed the same contract as the rest of the contestants. Sure she was stressed out, but she threw an over-the-top temper tantrum, started insulting the other designers and got all pushy with Dollhouse. She lost big marks for professionalism, which is sad because in the end she was the only one who couldn't live up to her show nickname.
    Last edited by corprip; 02-27-2005 at 11:23 AM.
    "I've got soul, but I'm not a soldier." The Killers.

  8. #158
    Christian,Mom,Teacher mom2's Avatar
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    I pretty much knew Jay won it when they started ShoeGate. There was no way that Kara could have won without threat of lawsuit. I wanted either one to win, my mantra that night was "anyone but Wendy".

    I can totally understand Kara's frustration, she is the only one who had the foresight to design the shoes with her clothes. Then to be told just before the competition when you have no time to replace them, instead of when the others were grabbing the freebie shoes too .... she was at a disadvantage. She was stressing out and tried to rectify the situation with receipts and didn't have time to hear her friend argue with her about how it was a gift. She said $5 per shoe, and they ended up charging $15 per shoe. I feel she had a right to be grieved, the timing was atrocious.

    Jay, loved him was happy he won. I was rooting for either he or Kara. He was hilarious, love Jay's comments. Headphones ... crazy, but Jay.

    Wendy. Head case. Using her daughter for sympathy votes. Yes, I thought I saw "the picture" on her desk too. Her daughter did bust her for the picture she drew for the judges ... at mommy's prompting. Also, if someone is ignoring me, I'm usually ignoring them back. Confrontational stuff was for camera time only. Get over it, what was it .. a week at the most? AND, why was she the only one who had her mother come to the room?? Bringing her daughter when visits were probably done off camera, it was done to make the others uncomfortable and add to the camera time. BTW, I wish she'd be forced to see how totally unattractive that little smirk is on her face.

    Okay, now that it's all over, loved that Jay won. Hated that Kara had that happen to her at the very end. Wish Wendy would GO AWAY.
    "Quotes on the internet may not be accurate." - Abraham Lincoln

  9. #159
    Samantha's Mommy Closet Fan's Avatar
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    I'll reiterate that although I'm disappointed with the way Kara Saun handled the ShoeGate situation once Tim Gunn brought it to her attention, I don't believe she deliberately violated the contract. Negligent violation, wilfully ignorant violation, yes, but deliberate violation, no. She should have read the contract and been familiar with its terms in great detail, no question, but I could see where she might consider the shoes "accessories" and not actually part of the outfit itself, certainly that would have been how I would have looked at it. Or more likely, given her work in the business for so long, that's how things are done all the time, famous and connected people are able to procur free gowns and the like all the time in exchange for the publicity of wearing it to an important event, agents arrange for "dates" that aren't really dates, they're promotional arrangements, she probably didn't give it a second thought.

    But I have to agree with the posters above, if I were in her place, and I'd spent so much time custom designing and getting shoes to exactly match my garment designs, and I found out (even if I should have known better in the first place) several hours before the runway show that my shoes were toast, I had no budget left, and my only other resort were the leftover shoes that Wendy and Jay hadn't already snagged out of the box, I'd freak out too. Having a legal background, I'd have known her "solution" was no real workaround and it wouldn't fly, so I wouldn't personally have tried it, and I don't like very much that she did that, and I can't understand why she had that conversation in that manner in front of a camera crew and her competitors, she's lucky Wendy didn't call a lawyer and try to get a court injunction, but I can't entirely blame her for freaking out. When Tim gave her the perfect out, she should have just taken it, been grateful, and stopped arguing. But I can only imagine how stressed out she was, and how problematic it was for her, and I can understand how creative people don't like legalese and rules standing in the way of their vision, even though she was on the wrong end of the argument.

    As for all the Kara Saun defenders on the Bravo website, well, we've had quite a few Wendy defenders with just a handful of posts emerge on THIS board in the last couple of days, they could be Wendy, they could be her friends and family, so Kara Saun may well be in good company. Or it could be people who just haven't been worked up enough to comment on the show's goings on until now. Who knows?

  10. #160
    Read The Clue Bearcata's Avatar
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    Jay won. Congratualtions.

    I liked the blue sweater with the blue and silver squares, but it is the only thing in his collection I would wear, oh yeah the quilted coat was nice too.

    I like Jay. To me he is an all around good human being. Its funny seeing where he was raised, and small town mentality being what it is that he is not a bitter, bitter person from all the teasing and cruelty he probably suffered as a child.

    This show means alot to him and he does not like it maligned. As per him going after Vanessa last week and some of the comments that Wendy made and he commented on when they met again during fashion week. I really liked how he reacted to Wendy's mom. That entire scene was a hoot and it did open Jay's mind that their are other facets to Wendy's personality. I like that he is man enough to talk and interact with Wendy while Kara is doing the the junior high silent treatment. In this case he is very much the better man.

    The original premise of this show is to have a haute couture line. Jay had a vision and concept and went for it so did Kara. Wendy is weak in this area.
    I would have liked to see Wendy grow in this area but it may remain a problem for her. She had been discribed a tenacious and a good tailor and her work too commercial. As far as her work being too commercial and not haut couture enough, I was impressed with some of her pieces. that ruffled bronze top and the dress Melissa wore. That not haute couture? Ok but it will sell in NOrdstroms. Not all of us can afford to spend $5,000 on one piece of haute couture.

    One reason I like Wendy, is I like anyone that opens themselves us in a confessional and I can see what they are really like. Do I think they are evil because they want to win and say they will use strategy. Heck no. Do I honestly think other people only think pure good thoughts. Please. Lets all be real here. EVerybody came to this project with a strategy. If that is using your talent and working hard. That is a strategy. Other people have other strategies that are different than yours. Robert obviously relied heavily on using charm. Daniel and Mario relied on just their talent. Should you get upset becaue you learn that? No. cause that is how people are.

    Do I honestly think Wendy was the big manipulator? No. First she had the same time limits as the others. Heidi mentioned that there was not much time to rest because when you were not working you were being interviewed. Other posters want me to believe that somehow during all this that Wendy somehow got away and managed to influence Nina Garcia, Heidi, Michael Kors and various producers to eliminate certain people and keep her and not one camera man caught this on tape and not one judge complained and not one producer reported her. No I don't. There is a big difference between saying you will do something and accually doing it. And also on top of that, she was somehow backstabbing and manipulating the other contestents. Well, If she could do all that then Wendy needs to be nominated to become the next DCI (Director of Central Intelligence because we need someone just like that in that position.)

    St. Kara. All thought out this show Kara came across as an all around human being with spiritual depth and compassion and not turned bitter and cynical even after working all this time in Hollywood. What exactly did Wendy do to her? How did Wendy backstab her? Would someone please site examples. No the fabric stealing doesn't count because Kara could have gone up to Wendy at the time and said oh I was using that. Did she? She did not. That entire I Everyone hates you and you are souless was out of line. Refusing to talk about it is childish. wouldn't it have been better to just get it all out in the open and then go on instead of it festering. I think by now everyone knows Wendy is very insecure and people hit her with the 'you have no talent'. That is a low blow and mean and spiteful. St. Kara how nice of you to say that. Does this mean you are still pure and sinless? Oh, Shoe Gate didn't happen I must have dreamed it.

    This entire Kara is good and Wendy is evil is ridiculous. No matter what, everything Wendy does is suspect. She could have had someone else show her collection and people her would have raved about it until they found out she was involved. Jay's family was there , so was Kara's just because we didn't see it doesn't mean they did not come up see the final three in their design room.The same with St. Kara. She could have made an entire collection out of dried cow poop and called it 'Basic Matter' and people would have raved about it because St. Kara had done it.

    Wendy does have self esteem and self confidence issues.She also needs to self promote herself more. This was very evident in the 2nd challenge when all the contestents were in the store and had to explain their concept of envy. Wendy also had the same problem during the finale when she had to explain the concept of her line. Definitely a weakness that needs to be addressed. I suggest Dale Carnegie. Jay knows how to promote himself and does it in a funny harmless manner. Kara does well here too. Wendy needs to find a clear concept and hold on to it and that has been her problem this entire show. That and I agree that some of her social skills need improving. I did not have a problem will her saying Austin or Kevin was a poor leader. But I think she needs to cite some very clear reasons. Kevin needed to give us specific jobs to do. We were just standing around watching him instead of him giving us tasks to do to help him. Austin needs to have better communication with the people he is working with. (these are just examples) If she cited specific examples perphaps there would have been less hard feelings. People don't like being critized but if you critique them it is very helpful.
    Last edited by Bearcata; 02-27-2005 at 05:00 PM.

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