9/20 Show Discussion Thread **West Coast Spoilers**

[ness]

. . . Also keep in mind when we consider the role the production staff has in all this----this is NOT broadcast live. It is all taped and edited long before it is shown to us. This could have been edited differently to spare the woman. It wasn't---did it hurt Ven or the woman more who just came to this show for a pretty dress?

I think we saw more of Ven and the woman JUST for the sake of TV drama when we could have seen much, much less of their interaction. He still would have looked bad on TV for the ugly outfit he sent out. She could have been spared the humiliation

Another incisive take on this, ibot.

We --- myself included, first and foremost --- CAN forget that editing DOES slant and shape a perspective on what actually occurred in a situation. Just as pics can be photoshopped to hell and back, and taped remarks can be edited to the point where a conversation no longer resembles what was actually stated, TV editing can be a bear.

Taking that into consideration . . .

In this particular instance, my thoughts are that the editing POSSIBLY was done as it was to put forward exactly HOW big a jerk Ven is. To accomplish that, Terri, the other part of the equation, HAD to be shown as much as she was, I believe. Had we just seen Ven making his nasty comments, etc., and not gotten any reaction shots of Terri looking hurt, or Theo and the other designers looking aghast and incredulous and disgusted at the things he was saying and doing, then the impact of what he did wouldn't've hit us as hard as it did. Riled us up so.

Had the editing been done otherwise, we might've even felt sorry for VEN, and totally disregarded or forgotten altogether that the only sins Terri committed were to have been breathing and shown up for a makeover and a pretty dress.

Also, we wouldn't've seen Theo go off at judging about him like she did if they'd not been targeting Ven, I think. IIRC, I remember Tim, Heidi, Padma, Gail, Tom (from TC and TCJD of course), all saying at various times that the very few minutes of the judging segments we actually see on their shows absolutely do NOT reflect what occurred. Why? Because those call-em-out sessions can literally sometimes last five, six, or MORE hours.

Sure, the Ven/Terri trainwreck provided drama, here. As Shoepie and Allie have pointed out, above, this season has been one of the dullest in terms of spark and humor among the cast. TPTB KNOW this, and were/are mining for any chunk of "gold" they can find --- or CREATE --- to keep us salivating, Friday-morning-quarterbacking, and breaking our thumbs punching our remotes to tune in each week.

Yeah, Terri, unfortunately, got dragged into the mess that is Ven.

But out of all that came up from this mess, even the editing with Terri heavily included, SHE was the one who came out looking like the saint, here. Mean as he was to her, from what was shown, not ONCE did she actively verbally strike back and tell him off. And NOBODY would've blamed her if she had. Most of US certainly would've, I believe, and Theo DEFINITELY had her back at the judging session, AND in makeup and hair (as did the other designers, even in their PIs about how he was behaving).

Ven may've really hurt himself in the fashion world in the long run, with his behavior, just based on what was shown.

God only knows what ELSE he did or said to/about Terri that WASN'T shown.

And I am NOT defending the staff or TPTB of PR. Ven should've been dealt with LONG before this week, in the Rockette challenge.

So, their hands are dirty, too (THANKS FOR THAT ONE, JUDGE JUDY!!!!).

Just a few thoughts.

[Shoepie]

No, you are in the right thread...the one about the show from 9/20 when Ven was sent home. Remember? And we were reacting to his comment when he was sent home about having no regrets. And of course as threads do we went off on the regrets he should or should not have had.

I figured that out when I scrolled up and saw the "fashion."

[jaytwo]

Just my 2 cents here:

Clearly Christopher won because that was Debra Messings fave and the judges liked it too so they went with Christopher instead of Dmitry. I still do not understand DM's comment about it being too risque... phooey to that.

As far as Ven goes, I've said it before and will say it again. The judges have never made their decisions based on personality or the ability to play well with others. As glad as I am that Ven is gone, if they had sent him home because of the Terri incident (I think that was her name? The real world lady he made the dress for?) Anyway, if he had gone home for that it would have upset the show in the long run.

It really does need to be about the design and not about how well they get along with people. If they are nasty to others, it will come back to bite them soon enough, all on their own doing.

Edited to add: Sigh, I guess I really need to change my avatar!

[Arielflies]

Edited to add: Sigh, I guess I really need to change my avatar!

I guess you do.

Was it last week or the week before that I complained about the boring fashion? Unfortunately, I can't eat those words yet. I am hopeful, though. Silly me.

[pikachu]

As far as Ven goes, I've said it before and will say it again. The judges have never made their decisions based on personality or the ability to play well with others. As glad as I am that Ven is gone, if they had sent him home because of the Terri incident (I think that was her name? The real world lady he made the dress for?) Anyway, if he had gone home for that it would have upset the show in the long run.

I disagree with your statement. Ven deserved to be sent home that week not just for his attitude. He didn't work with his client at all to come up with a look that suited her needs, personality and lifestyle. From what's been said online, the other designers pitched in to help with his client's hair and makeup because Ven didn't instruct the stylists on it at all. The outfit he made didn't look good on his client. He clearly couldn't construct an outfit for a plus-size woman.

The only thing that did upset the show in the long run was that a good designer, Nathan, got sent home. His client actually liked her outfit. I wish Nathan had been here for the Rockette challenge because I bet he would have created a great look!

I think Ven was kept on the strength of his previous work but that's not really fair. The motto of the show is one day you're in, the next day you're out. The designers are supposed to be judged on what they do each week. If they fail to perform one week, they should be out because of it regardless of how well they did on another week.

[jaytwo]

Umm nope, you did not change my mind. They have always said it was about design and not about personality. And while I do see your points, I still think that they kept him based on his design ability and finally he showed that he was not very good at that either.

[Babbred]

I disagree with your statement. Ven deserved to be sent home that week not just for his attitude. He didn't work with his client at all to come up with a look that suited her needs, personality and lifestyle. From what's been said online, the other designers pitched in to help with his client's hair and makeup because Ven didn't instruct the stylists on it at all. The outfit he made didn't look good on his client. He clearly couldn't construct an outfit for a plus-size woman.

The only thing that did upset the show in the long run was that a good designer, Nathan, got sent home. His client actually liked her outfit. I wish Nathan had been here for the Rockette challenge because I bet he would have created a great look!

I think Ven was kept on the strength of his previous work but that's not really fair. The motto of the show is one day you're in, the next day you're out. The designers are supposed to be judged on what they do each week. If they fail to perform one week, they should be out because of it regardless of how well they did on another week.

Ness said:


Ven may've really hurt himself in the fashion world in the long run, with his behavior, just based on what was shown.

Did the "real woman" episode air before or after FW? I'm just curious whether those people who raved about Ven's collection knew about his behavior. If they did and still cheered him on, then that turns my stomach all over again.

God only knows what ELSE he did or said to/about Terri that WASN'T shown.

That thought had occurred to me.

....

So, their hands are dirty, too (THANKS FOR THAT ONE, JUDGE JUDY!!!!).

Just a few thoughts.

I love Judge Judy.


And just a few more thoughts about Ven. He thinks, like most designers on this show, that the be-all and end-all of fashion designing is to create for some stick-thin celebrity on a red carpet. Two things:

1. When that other show aired on NBC, I remember folks here at FORT rushing out the next day and then reporting back here, "I found it! That dress we saw last night, I found it!" Magnify that by all the people across the country hunting online or rushing into the stores to buy those outfits, and how much do you think those designers made? I'm guessing it wasn't pocket change. And of course, if their outfits did well, then those designers will probably get repeat orders from the stores.


2. If you need something to scrub your mind after seeing all these designers who only worship size-0 celebrities, then read the novel Bergdorf Blondes by Plum Sykes. It is a hilarious look at how shallow the rich and famous are on both sides of the country. The scene where the "real" heroine attends a drinks party in Hollywood and has to put up with the airheaded movie stars is worth the price of the book alone. Then go hug your family and count yourself privileged that you're a "real" woman!

[ness]

Regarding "playing well with others" . . .

JMHO . . .

NOBODY is going to get along with EVERYBODY, ALL the time.

However, if there doesn't happen to be a consistent bit of the "plays well with others" in your personality make-up --- whether its already there, or earned and learned through hard life lessons, doesn't matter WHAT your profession is --- you're going to have serious, serious problems in your business life, sooner, or later.

Far as designing goes . . .

Several years ago, Bob Mackie was a guest on a talk show I saw. THE Bob Mackie. The host asked him about dealing with difficult celebrities. Mackie's reply (paraphrased, of course, all these many years later):

"I don't put up with it. I don't allow ANY celebrity, no matter how big or how hot they may be, to come into my studio and abuse either my staff, or myself. ESPECIALLY not my staff. Yes, I CAN do EVERYTHING every member of my staff can do, because that is how I trained and learned my craft. But with my business as it is now, I couldn't and wouldn't be expected to produce BY MYSELF the gowns, costumes and so on that I have. Many of my people have been with me twenty or more years, and I wouldn't dream of allowing them to be disrespected by anyone who comes through my door. It doesn't cost you anything to be nice and respectful to anyone, and I will not risk having any member of my staff quit because I allowed a 'star' to abuse them."

The host then asked Mackie if he'd ever dropped a client for bad behavior. His reply: "Yes, I have. And in all the years I've been in business for myself, I've only had to do it twice. Word gets around. And celebrities that are rude to designers and their staff people find it very difficult to get garments custom-made for them, because EVERYBODY in the business knows who they are. I and my staff treat each and every one of our clients with respect, and that is what we expect to receive from them in return. No garment, for ANY amount of money is, to me, worth taking abuse for, or allowing my staff to be abused, either."

That, obviously, struck me really hard, and I never forgot it.

An even more RECENT case in point . . .

John Galliano.

Dude had been the head designer of The House of Dior for years. Unfortunately for him, he was caught on tape drunk as a skunk and speaking his sober thoughts in an anti-Semitic rant in a Paris cafe. Among others who bashed him for his behavior was Natalie Portman. Who, BTW, just happens to be Jewish.

Long story short, Galliano got canned. Why? Because the fact that he was drunk didn't serve as an excuse for his reprehensible remarks. Sure, he had his defenders. But, at the end of the day, he DIDN'T have his job, anymore, and also had to face trial in a Paris court on charges of making racist remarks.

The court, obviously, didn't care that he'd had a snootful, either. They cared that he'd been extremely disrespectful and rude and racist. Even after proffering an apology, he was found guilty.

Heaven only knows where he is now, or what he's doing.

Ven, that nasty, rude, shameless b@$+@rd, can design beautiful origami rose clothing for beautifully made-up and coiffed models from now 'til the Second Coming, and beyond. But, after how he treated Terri, in the long run, I really don't think any real celebrity that heard about or saw his behavior towards her on PR would tap him to design a garment for either themselves, or say, their mother, sister, auntie, best friend, etc.

At least not right now, anyway. He just might have to work in the vineyards and eat his share of crow for awhile.

When it's all said and done, I --- for one --- really don't believe that the ability to "play well with others" can be totally discounted, no matter WHAT your profession happens to be, or whether or not you happen to be a PR contestant.

It took 'em awhile, but Ven finally got what was coming to him. And I honestly don't think his final ice-skating Rockette outfit had everything to do with that. Elena's, I think, was FAR worse, yet she's still there.

She, at least, DID show that she was able to respect a "real" client.

JMHO.

[ness]

BTW, pikachu and Babbred . . .

Excellent, well-thought-out posts, BOTH you!

[Shoepie]

Just my 2 cents here:

Clearly Christopher won because that was Debra Messings fave and the judges liked it too so they went with Christopher instead of Dmitry. I still do not understand DM's comment about it being too risque... phooey to that.

As far as Ven goes, I've said it before and will say it again. The judges have never made their decisions based on personality or the ability to play well with others. As glad as I am that Ven is gone, if they had sent him home because of the Terri incident (I think that was her name? The real world lady he made the dress for?) Anyway, if he had gone home for that it would have upset the show in the long run.

It really does need to be about the design and not about how well they get along with people. If they are nasty to others, it will come back to bite them soon enough, all on their own doing.

Edited to add: Sigh, I guess I really need to change my avatar!

Totally agree. I don't care what Ven's attitude was toward the overweight lady. Just don't. I get the frustration and that is all they showed. Not a big deal to me in the least. As for the contestant, suck it up, be strong and if you didnt like you edit, loose weight or own it. I am so done with Ven being the bad guy here. I would not want to design a tent for a heavy woman in their postion either! Especially one is going to take offense at her weight which she damn well knows is not ideal.!!