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Thread: 9/23 Show Discussion **Spoilers**

  1. #431
    OOOOOOO SPARKLEY mischief4911's Avatar
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    Apr 2003
    Quote Originally Posted by honeybear
    they were paided... All you have to do is pay women alot of money and they'll do anything..

    I always try so hard to not be rude to anyone here and be open to the opinions of others. I have a huge amount of respect for everyone but..... as for your above quote all I can say is speak for yourself.....

    "We make a living from what we get, but we make a life from what we give." Winston Chruchill

  2. #432
    I wanted to reply to wideeyed posting. However I am new here so I dont know how to take out only specfic quotes where I want to refer to rather than the whole long post. I think that wideeyed has alot of good points but I can't agree that Dave is smart enough to think that far ahead. Yes he is somewhat smart but not that smart. I don't think that he made that comment to Holly to put himself in trouble so Keith and Tara would win. I think that he just was trying to get Holly on his good side so he would have a better chance of winning and dug his own hole doing this. I don't think any of them suspects that there might be a jury vote. I noticed that he always wanted people to think that he was a honest person by always saying "to be honest" but he really isn't as honest as he would like people to think he is. I did not like him when he first came in but started liking him when I got caught into the "Barbies" thing. I think that the show is reminding us of his true colours now. If he had the power he may still have been loyal to Keith and kicked out the Scott duo but sorry making promises to Holly is not the way to do it.

  3. #433
    Idol Fan
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    Feb 2003
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    I have to say here, Purple73 & wideeyed.
    Although, I, too, was impressed by your post, wideeyed, and thank you for reminding us of the great degree of editing going on, I have to say that I do agree with purple73 here, about Dave.

    First of all, Dave was never particularly that intelligent. He's been insecure and obnoxious and definitely arrogant. Yes, I felt for him, at times, and liked him more and more as he displayed rational and quiet, but sincere maturity when the mob attacked him, and from that point til tonight. However, he has made any number of mistakes in judgment and has gone too far in playing the game by being two-faced and then never giving an honest answer when called out for it. He's done it before. He politics, we all know it. But what he said to Holly wasn't right, just to gain some backing when they didn't know who would have the power to cast one couple out. He flip-flops between insecurity and lack of self-esteem and an over-compensatory arrogance. He also looks out for "number 1" above all and always has, making no secret of it! He would never sacrifice himself for anyone but Charla!

    When he told Keith & Tara he never had a "number 2" he was full of it. He had a real pact, all along, with them. Editing or no, he said that and got all worked up about despite the 4 of them always having the Pact he denied tonight. That was supposed to last til the final 4 people were left, not 6. I agree the producers have played us, but I also think that Dave was wrapped up, once again, in his feelings regarding Charla and never stopped to realize that he would have been in a position of 4 to 2 if he had only stayed honest and stood by Keith & Tara, giving them nothing to pick between. He had no call, at this point, to go politicking in that way.

    Of course, I may be buying into what the producers are doing. However, I'd have to say Dave's need to be liked and poor judgment have led him to going too far in what he says to others before. The one and only moment that came across strange - as if it were pulled from an earlier time, was the way he was sitting facing Charla and couldn't bear to discuss strategy, and wanted to talk about relationships and rejection.

    I think Keith is the only one, of the men, who has shown good judgment, intelligence and integrity and never did anything to be attacked for by everyone else's insane claim that they alone deserved to be there, among the earlier rabid wolf pack. Of the women, the only one with intelligence in this game is Charla, the definite leader. Tara finally stopped her swinging back and forth and became loyal to the Foursome; at which point I finally liked her a lot more. Yet Dave's arrogant reaction about him alone being the one to carry Charla, Keith & Tara was out of line, all the way. It was Charla who rescued him, though one could make a case for it being mutual. And it was most definitely Keith alone who broke the back of the ugly-behaved "Originals" who were dead set on keeping everyone else out.

    Well, I guess now we wait and see.

  4. #434
    I was just wondering what would have happened if Dave and Charla had voted for Tara instead. I know it wouldn't have made much sense because of the possible risk involved but they were only limited to not being able to vote for someone in their own couple or themselves, right?

  5. #435

    These people aren't really that bright

    [FONT=Arial Narrow][COLOR=Black]
    Here's a couple things about this show...

    First of all, I have no inside info, and the editing tricks, and possible behind the scenes manipulations make a lot of speculations questionable, nevertheless...

    No one on this show is really articulate or bright. They all are stunted emotionally and intellectually in some way. For instance, Dave, thinks he's a master tactician and uses that same move over and over like he's a lawyer, when asked a direct question, "Dave, did you say to Holly nothing to worry about", he doesn't answer, he deflects with "I said I would have to talk to my partner", just one of his very transparent techniques. And when cornered he gets testy like all the others. He's super shady, and his justification is, "I'm smarter, and since I can't compete as a stud, I'll outsmart these guys", the problem is, the win will be empty. One, he's not as smart as he thinks. Two, he's not honest or standup at all. (nor should he be, you can't win if you are honest) But the saddest thing is, that he has devoted hiimself to someone who not only is not attracted to him, isn't really that into him as a guy and completely doesn't "get him". When he has tried to open up or have a real moment and put his thoughts and feelings out there, Charla was doing her nails, combing her hair and either too obtuse to get it, or because she feared his feelings for her, just played dumb. That's sad to see. She could at least have been sensitive to a man with his heart on his sleeve, and reassure him with something genuine and acknowledging without pretending to have feelings she doesn't have...

    Like many, I've enjoyed watching DCKT survive a hostile environment. And Kieth who came in to the game looking like all fluff, has at times shown a bit of intelligence, and that he's not a complete shallow chump. But when he was under assault from the mob, and even before, the thing that I've never understood, is why he didn't get up their faces and say, "Listen, yeah, I took you out because you were all operating as a closed clique and treated all newcomers as disposable -- we formed this alliance here to survive and it's no different than what you all were doing". They blew it with some of the late comers by not pointing out to them, they were dead ducks too, until the arrogant people like Alex, Kristin and Lamy started to drop. They should have worked Tom and Holly harder before they went to the other side.

    Most of these people are ultra shallow and spurting off about stuff that makes no sense. There was no reason to hate on Tara or Kieth. They entered the game, and had no friends, so of course they formed a clique. Tara didn't start off in any camp and just wanted to kick it and have fun.

    Dave is also a fool, because he's been into Charla who has no interest in him at all from the git go, and he has given her loyalty, when her loyalty back was just because she needed someone.

    Nobody is innocent on this show, and the thing that also is wild, is that they stopped having fun and being carefree all over a bunch of nothing. People were going to get voted off, that's the game. Why would you think that people who you ostracized and mocked, would do anything for you. Lamy got stuck.

    The correct move, (not knowing any of the final tricks) is for Keith to pick DC and only for one reason, not loyalty, because clearly Dave got exposed with all his scheming to play both sides. He should pick them, on the chance that any twist at the end, involves votes from former guests, or you must pick the other persons partner. Then he could pick Charla, or Dave could pick Tara. At least the people he wants to win have a better shot. If he's up against SH it's a lot more dangerous, because if DC get to vote, they're feeling betrayed and if old timers return they would vote for anyone other than KT.

    By the way, while T is no rocket--scientist, she proved more clever and more real than many gave her credit for. She took Alex out and he thought she was an idiot. That guy was so full of himself with nothing to back it up.

    Holly and Tom and Desiree all made a big mistake. By going against the shift of power, they sided with the last strains of the old-guard and isolated themselves. If Amy got her crew back, Holly, Tom and Desiree were the first to go and that they didn' see that was their undoing. Had they sworn their loyalty to the other four they could have worked from the inside and upset something when the moment arose.

    Like I said, none of these people are that bright. All Dave needed to do, was tell Keith in no uncertain terms, listen bro, I got your back. If you need me to tell SH I will. He thought it was dangerous to show that, and started to fear Keith, but it was premature. He should have just stuck to the plan, isolated SH as lame-ducks and then whoever got the power would keep the four together, which KTC would have done? And then let it fall where it would...he lucked out and thought he was more in control than he was. He out-thought himself. He didn't need to keep up a facade with Scott. They were down to the final 6 and no one could vote for themselves, so SH had to vote for one of the other 4. Stick to the plan, no wavering with Keith, don't piss of Tara and you all make the final 4. Then see what happens...bonehead. And after the entire length of the show, to sit there still hoping that somehow suddenly Charla is going to be into him. Sad again...

    I"m glad to see KT get to the finals, because they took the most bs for no reason. They just tried to survive and had the crew welcomed them, DC would have been gone long ago. CT had no natural bond, nor KD they just bonded out of desperation to have any power.

    Holly isn't real bright either, and clearly Scott isn't interested in her in any serious way, but yet she remained loyal to S the whole way? Why? Beau comes back and thinks he can fk up all the others, how stupid. I'm here for you Amy, I'll stand in for Zak? Why? Amy didn't give a shit about him. Beau, play the game for yourself man, who cares about Whak?

    Zak deserved to be kicked off, both times. What a joke.

    Here are these people primped and pampered in luxury, and instead of enjoying themselves and trying to get along with each other, it became factional, and the silliness of most of the lashing out and outrages, is comical.

    No one had any responsibility to help anyone else. These are strangers thrown together for a few weeks on a show. Very unrealistic expectations and lack of perspective. Didn't need to be nearly as personal and negative as it got.

    There obviously a lot of other time that is edited out, and so who knows what else was really happening, but Scott tries to play it like he's "Joe Standup", he's like all the rest, another phoney tryint to win, try to be cool with all and ride below the radar. Does he think if it got down to the end and Zack/Amy, Kristin/Alex were there that SH would survive? Wake up people. Nobody is your friend when their own fate is on the line.

    Desiree volunteering was very suspicious and Lamy's "I want out" and then being convinced to stay is suspicious too. Anyone who thinks, "hey, she just speaks her mind", she made no sense. Her logic was ridiculous, she attacked people for no reason. Zak doesn't really want her for his girl, he was playing that up for the cameras, his body language and comments if you listened carefully was still keeping a distance. He didn't act the way somebody who really is in love acts. He kept calling her a "Friend", not "my girl". When he came back he played it up having watched the interim. She's a big baby and I'm really glad she didn't make it to the end, because she really didn't deserve it. I can understand her being bummed to see her favorite go, but she didn't do anything to let the new people feel part of the group. And once the game went on, she should have adapted instead of being stuck to her, "its all about Whack" ... it's a game, enjoy yourself and explore the other people and see if you can win. What a dope. And if you didn't really care about anyone else, then you should just leave.

    When her crew was ignoring and mocking the others, she was happy. When it shifted on her and she got the same treatment (and no one dogged her, they just had fun and got animated) she whined and moaned like she was getting cheated. She had no more right to be there and feel more important than anyone else.

    To the extent that there is any real truth on these shows, it's interesting to see the interactions and dynamics of people, but they don't have people who are really bright and articulate with a real vocabulary, command of logic and common sense, or consistency. Let alone how to handle people.

    I'm rooting for KT, but the producers obviously have their own agenda.

    Remember, it's all about selling soap, cars and beer. Nothing really happens on this shows and the majority of it is replayed clips of prior moments. It's all puff not much to it at all. The rules definitely change each week, so they can steer things. But nevertheless, like any Soap Opera, reality shows like this and the others, you identify with one person or another, and get a little invested.

    Nothing special about any of these people, most are pretty shallow and limited in their maturity and ability to comprehend the dynamics and react in any cool way, but it was nice to see the little band of 4 outsmart the cocky others, and survive the hostile return of the others.

    I would never watch a Paradise II. Just not that interesting. Nothing happens. And the people just aren't that interesting.

  6. #436
    Well, thanks for the welcome Bellenote I think both you and Reazon made some great points, and I'm sure in the end we will find out that Dave really wasn't as smart as I thought/hoped he was, but I have to say,it's nagging at me that right when they needed Dave or anyone, to be a total idiot and provide some great fodder for discussion he coincidentally just steps up to the plate to provide it, exactly when the show needed it...People aren't too mad at Holly or Scott, and the drama of the victorious alliance being brroken up and fractured just appeared right on cue. Not that I have any respect fro Zack, but remember in the radio interview and he talked about the producers telling the guys how to act selecting a new person on the show? It makes you wonder....They were each told to fulfill a role in a way, and were probably cast for it, so the show must be happy. Like jury selecion, I truly think that casting reality shows these days must an art form....find competitive, not tooo bright people, who are not concerned with hypocrisy, and put them in a blender, and mix

    Maybe the pinkie-swear thing with D and C was more serious than I thought. Dave has seemingly burnt a lot of bridges, but like Danielle and Alison fromBig Brother, I wonder if maybe he's now playing for second place now. But the end will not be cut-and-dried, who doesn't think that when the winners are announced, that they aren't the true winners? Or the prize is for something maybe not palatable?

    Kieth seems most grounded, Dave seems to unsuccessfully be balancing his emotions and a strategy that maybe has worked in spite of itself, up until now, and Tara and Charla seem to be genuine when it comes to true friendship, which is surprising in such a paranoid, self-centered atmosphere. And as for scott, how can anyone respect him? You know the saying about keeping quiet while allowing others to embarrass and belittle someone, that is the worst, as has been pointed out much more articulately by others.

    Guys like richard hatch, and Will from big brother are being made to look like choir boys...Who woulda thought?

  7. #437
    Loaded God Complex MajiH's Avatar
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    Apr 2003
    Atop the highhhhhest weathervane in Spain!
    Big ol' welcome to the new folks!

    Poor Dave. What a night. After my 6yo son got stung by both a bee and a wasp yesterday, I didn't think anyone could have a worse day...but Dave did.

    Keith is an idiot. How could he possibly not think that Dave would not play the game as hard as he did? Sure, Dave made false promises. Hell, I am quite sure Keith has made a few empty ones during his stay, too. Y'all know he is going to not bounce Charla because Tara won't have it.

    Holly is an airhead. Scott is her handler. I haven't seen Scott do one damned thing worthy of winning this game other than resting on his laurels and macking with the chicks. He needs to tie a string to Holly, hang on tight, and pop her head - what a nifty way to exit Paradise forever.

    Ah, Amy. What more can I say? Nice to see you go. It was also pleasant to see you leave tonight dressed in an actual outfit as opposed to the black sequined tubetop you wore last week. Does anyone really own one of those anymore? I thought they went out with Donna Summers and headbands....oh, wait. Well, now it makes sense.

    If I had to pick a winner, I would have to stay with Dave and Charla. If it comes down to a final vote, Tara has done TOO much personal damage rubbing her skinny white behind all over these bootees. Those guys will remember that. I think, based on Tara's past behavior, she may have hung herself in her hair extensions.

  8. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by XMAfan
    Sorry guys but Amy took herself out tonight, so much for Keith's sweet revenge!
    That doesnt matter. By that logic the person who is losing at nintendo and turns off the machine didnt lose either. Amy was in a position where she never would have won. Keith is there, Amy aint. Case closed.

  9. #439
    Last night's show made apparent to me that Dave is playing both ends against the middle...and probably has been for some time. He tells Keith/Tara one thing while telling Scott/Holly something else. Dave, yu can't have it both ways! When a person does that, for whatever reason, it's something that will come back to bite you.

    Besides, Dave's logic "ramblings" show after show have never made sense to me. I think he's told so many different stories to so many people, he can't keep his stories straight any longer. As someone said, "What webs we weave when we first begin to deceive".

    Keith spottted this inconsistency in Dave and went to Scott to shore up their alliances. Neither was in a secure position to believe Dave would save them...their best bet was to remove Dave/Charla from the runnings.

    Now that Keith has the power, he should remember that both Scott/Holly gave him their unequivocal support by voting for him and choose them to stay. Dave has pretty much nullified his stance.

    Scott gave Keith good pointers on what honor, integrity, and a person's word mean...something that Keith has shown thru all these weeks. If Keith dumps Scott/Holly after all that, it'll be a "kicker".

  10. #440
    Just Looking Norm601's Avatar
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    Jan 2003
    Heard Dave in a radio interview this morning and he said that the entire cast of originals will be brought back to vote on the winner(s). Some here have already posted as much, either from speculation or other cast interviews they have heard. But Dave said even the final vote-off will have a "shocking" twist that he said was unbelievable. Of course he wants to pump up the ratings but I am wondering what kind of twist it might be? Any thoughts?

    Dave also said he knew his fifteen-minutes-of-fame clock was ticking down, but plugged his web site and said he had made lifetime friendships with Keith, Tara and Charla.

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