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Thread: The Passion of the Christ - 02/25/04

  1. #11
    FORT Fogey
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    Quote Originally Posted by lobeck
    Oh, and Chadoe...your avatar is so similar to Firegirl's. Interesting...
    Do you mean it is an animated av? Like this one It is similar to mine too...

  2. #12
    Retired! hepcat's Avatar
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    Lobeck, I didn't know that about MG's father. Thanks for posting this info.

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  3. #13
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    Mel Gibson's father said it not Mel Gibson.
    Mel Gibson has said over and over in interviews that he does not believe the Jewish race is responsible for the death of Christ. He says all humanity is responsible and also talks about the Romans at that period in time and their role in the death.Also, this is a point in history. It did take place. Yes it is Mel Gibsons version of the gospels, but it is history. Jesus was Jewish, the people in the country were Jewish, like it or not it is history. In the same way that Shindlers List, Saving Private Ryan,The Titanic, Pearl Harbor and many other films tell a story set in a certain historical setting. Jesus was crucified that in fact did take place.
    Mel Gibson does not embrace his fathers views, he has said he does not want to discuss it because in spite of it he loves his father.
    He also said he does not think adding a "note agains anti-semitism" at the end of his film is necessary because it would imply his film is flawed. If some one is anti-semitic they already are. This film isn't going to turn someone into an anti-semite. The films message isn't about who is responsible anyway. It is about the suffering Christ went through the last twelve hours of his life.
    No one became anti-Japanese because of Pearl Harbor, we didn't go about persucuting Germans after Shindlers List. They too told a story intertwined in a factual historical setting.

  4. #14
    It's sensei time! Masai & Pygmie's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, people did become anti-Japanese after Pearl Harbour. Do you not remember the internment camps across western North America and the seizure of property and denying civil rights of American born Japanese. Many people were not actually present at Pearl Harbour and there are many different accounts of the days and hours preceding Pearl Harbour, but the news (though a medium like radio) sure had an impact on how people felt about the Japanese.

    I am sure that there will be some who will be quick to blame this movie, if someone takes this movie as a reason for stirring anti-semetic feelings. The story of the passion is lived out around the world, in some places where Christianity is outlawed and driven undergorund.

    Certainly, Gibson's film is his artistic vision of the passion and there are many motivations for making it, telling the story, releasing it on Ash Wednesday, having the dialogue read in Aramaic, Latin and Hebrew, and so on.

    He is trying to be as authentic as possible according to the four gospels (more with St. John's gospel) and reflect his vision of what it was like at that time and make a powerful statement that shows that he belong to Christ, who died on a Cross. People in NA should choose to see it or not.

    Personally, I have taken part in passion plays in the past and it has always a very moving experience - this year I will try to wait until Maunday Thursday to go see Gibson's film to try to get the maximum impact of that holy week.
    "Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." -- Henry David Thoreau

  5. #15
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    [QUOTE=Masai & Pygmie]Unfortunately, people did become anti-Japanese after Pearl Harbour. Do you not remember the internment camps across western North America and the seizure of property and denying civil rights of American born Japanese. Many people were not actually present at Pearl Harbour and there are many different accounts of the days and hours preceding Pearl Harbour, but the news (though a medium like radio) sure had an impact on how people felt about the Japanese...QUOTE]

    I could be mistaken, but it was my impression that this poster was referring to "Pearl Harbor" the recent movie, rather than the actual event, which certainly influenced people against the Japanese. I think the movie just influenced people *for* Ben Affleck.

  6. #16
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    [QUOTE=libra4]
    Quote Originally Posted by Masai & Pygmie
    Unfortunately, people did become anti-Japanese after Pearl Harbour. Do you not remember the internment camps across western North America and the seizure of property and denying civil rights of American born Japanese. Many people were not actually present at Pearl Harbour and there are many different accounts of the days and hours preceding Pearl Harbour, but the news (though a medium like radio) sure had an impact on how people felt about the Japanese...QUOTE]

    I could be mistaken, but it was my impression that this poster was referring to "Pearl Harbor" the recent movie, rather than the actual event, which certainly influenced people against the Japanese. I think the movie just influenced people *for* Ben Affleck.

    Your are correct Libra I was reffering to the recent movie, not the actual event which did result in japanese internment I should have made that more clear.

  7. #17
    It's sensei time! Masai & Pygmie's Avatar
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    No need to apologize Firegirl - my apologies - it was my misread (my head's still stuffed). I took it as the event as it happened and conveyed through a medium like radio.

    Film is so powerful and with a subject that is this passionate it is bound to create a lot of discussion, but hopefully not leading to misguided reaction.
    "Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." -- Henry David Thoreau

  8. #18
    It ain't easy being green Wayner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobeck
    Gibson is a devout follower of a Roman Catholic splinter group that believes in a Latin Mass and rejects changes made in the Church by Vatican II. As recently as this week, Gibson's dad went on radio to reiterate his belief that most of the Holocaust is "fiction." Biblical scholars have called Gibson's reading of the New Testament into question, and rumors have floated that the script's sources allegedly include an 18th-century Roman Catholic mystic. How can you say that is "just history"?
    Hi Lobes,
    I'd like to take a moment to respond to a few of the points you raised.
    1. Gibson's church. If you're saying that there's something wrong with his beliefs because of the church he attends, or you have a problem with him because of the church he attends, then what you're saying is that you fundamentally have a problem with every Catholic prior to Vatican II.Yes, it's a "splinter" from the Catholic Church. So is the Church of England. So are plenty of other churches. I think if you were to look up the origins of every Christian church, you'd find it splintered from another one.

    2. Gibson's father. Yes, Gibson's father said those things. Not Gibson. Gibson has flatly stated that he believes the Holocaust took place. If every one of us was held responsible for what our fathers say, then I'd be considered a racist and a homophobe. I'd like to think I'm not considered any of those things, because I certainly don't hold to my father's beliefs on those, or most subjects.

    3. Rumors. There are rumors floating that I'm an alien from the planet Xyrbcon.

    4. History. I agree with your statement that this is a film, based on the four gospels, and with Gibson's own slant. I also believe that historical documents not related to the Bible claim that Jesus did exist, that he was crucified, and many other facts that relate to the story of Jesus in the Bible. I can't quote them, because I'm not a Biblical Scholar.

    I'm really surprised that this film has stirred up so much angst and it hasn't even been released yet. And Lobes, I hope my tone here wasn't too tense - you know I love you. BNIAPWOC. BTW, where did you see the reports that there were signs up that said "No Jews" at the screenings? I'd be interested in knowing just how reliable those sources are. Also, I'd be interested in reading the stuff you mentioned about the Biblical Scholars that have called Gibson's reading into question.

  9. #19
    Premium Member Bumpkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayner
    I also believe that historical documents not related to the Bible claim that Jesus did exist, that he was crucified, and many other facts that relate to the story of Jesus in the Bible. I can't quote them, because I'm not a Biblical Scholar.
    Nice points, wayneman.

    Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian and Tacitus, a roman historian each mention Jesus, his crucifixion and his followers in independent accoutings of the history of that time.

    Just FWIW.

    This film is sure to raise so many strong emotions and reactions, I can forsee that it will be moved to CE at some point . I try to avoid CE though, because I find I *am* thin-skinned about some subjects . I have many fort friends here who I love and adore for many reasons, who may also disagree with me about some of my strongly held beliefs. I come here to talk about my TV habit, and because I have so many friends here. But when I want to debate hot-topics, I do it elsewhere

    That said, I am personally looking forward to seeing this film. As with other films, I can watch it without debating the director/producers beliefs/motives/etc.

    And an interesting bit of trivia about the film I learned today ... in speaking of how Hitchcock used to find ways to appear in his films, Gibson appears in this film.

    Or at least his hand. It's his hands that drive the nails. *chills*

  10. #20
    Blue Mooooooooon Blue Meanie's Avatar
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    “Biblical scholars have called Gibson's reading of the New Testament into question…”

    I find it interesting that so many comments and quotes regarding this film provide no named sources for their inclusion--in particular the above quote.

    I also found it extremely refreshing that Abraham H. Foxman
    National Director of the Anti-Defamation League stated the following:
    From WWW.ADL.ORG


    "Is Mel Gibson an anti-Semite? No. He's a true believer. Is his anti-Semitism intentional? I don't believe so. But I worry about unintended consequences, especially when they mesh in history. Is the film anti-Semitic? No. But its consequences, its impact, its message may fuel anti-Semitism."
    Paintin' the Town Blue!

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