7/31 LCS Show Discussion

[Shoepie]

I think it is impossible to predict how "America" thinks, pg. We are a varied group out here.

I wasn't certain that America was going to recognize Louis' strengths and professionalism...

"America" DOES see this. It is very apparent.

But, America DOES love a prop comic, doesn't it?

NO. And many of us don't like impressions either. Especially one of a comic who has affected a character for his act (Gilbert).

I like Jeff Dye, not because he is cute or clean or because I don't want Marcus to win. I just like the guy, I was entertained.

[CAdreamin]

I would say it's pretty painfully obvious that Iliza is going to win. I mean are you guys watching another show? She's been played up as a huge underdog ever since the finals began. "The guys picked on her" and she had to go into a double elimination....twice. The people she went against weren't that funny and it made her look like a better comic for beating them miserabley twice, so if she wins (which seems pretty likely) it's basically their fault for scapegoating her into the elimination thinking she'd be an obvious boote. I think after five seasons they want a female winner. They really pushed hard for Amy and she was REALLY stale as soon as the live shows began and I think that's where she faded. Iliza is fresh off of her elimination run and the finale is 5 to 1, that's another thing she has going in her favor. I mean the crowd clearly liked her the best, and she was also given the pimp spot. I also think people respect her for not reusing material and staying true to herself.

I disagree, I don't think Iliza has what it takes to win this thing. She won the double elimination twice solely because she went up against comics that weren't very funny. I also disagree with your statement that the crowd clearly liked her best. I saw them go crazy for Marcus and Jeff. My guess is that she comes in third with Marcus and Jeff vying for first.

I guess I could have just said "ditto" to pg's post but oh well...too late now!

[pg13]

I'm going to start this off by saying something obvious--nobody knows nothing...we're all just sharing our opinions and our take on whatever we've seen or heard...and we're all having fun taking something incredibly silly incredibly seriously...

I'm having fun talking about this show...hope everyone else is, too... Don't take my continuing to discuss these details as some example that I'm taking any of this too seriously.

First off, Michelle was never a favorite to win. She was also against a heavy favorite, Josh Blue. Was there any doubt he wasn't going to win? I mean I know there has been a lot of random decisons but I think what's helping Iliza is they pick a winner from 5 people. She's riding off the momentum of the previous weeks. In Michelle (and Amy's) season, it was a single elimination and I think their sets grew stale.

Iliza also got the pimp spot. In a two hour show, that's a big deal.

Let's start with that last comment. I don't think that going up last in a two hour show is necessarily a benefit--as your audience isn't captive, the way that it is in a live theater/club. Two hours of television--especially if you've pretty much made up your mind to who you like and who you don't like--is a bit much.

I think Marcus--who hadn't actually "performed" in front of America for weeks--drew the bullet (going up first) and nailed it. After having seen Marcus in a competitive setting for an entire month, I know that people who perform after Marcus has performed rarely get higher grades than Marcus does...and, for him, going first is a killer position.

I don't think Iliza changed anyone's mind with her set--she did what she does...so, I don't think it mattered where she went up...

I do agree that Iliza certainly benefits from the show choosing to make the final selection from five--especially a muddled five (with performances by three others who were only proven to be meaningless after they've performed)--in that there isn't a clear A/B comparison to be made.

I just don't feel the type of groundswell support across the internet FOR Iliza the way I'm noticing it FOR Marcus or FOR Jeff Dye...however, I DO sense a general level of "earned respect", "sympathy for her having been picked on" and "support for the last remaining girl"--to the level that I'm pretty certain that she's bound to finish third. Again, I can only share what it is that I'm feeling out there...

And I remember there were a fair number of comments regarding Michelle Balan that were pretty much exactly what I'm reading about Iliza--how it she's really shown people how good she is when everyone thought she was weak... Was she ever a favorite to win? No...but I don't get any sense that ILIZA is the favorite to win now...nor do I think she's ever been portrayed as the favorite to win. In fact, if you look on some of the less seasoned message boards following reality tv, you'll find that Iliza is being portrayed as the villain...the treacherous one who lied to poor Esther Ku and then complained about something she then went out and did.

...and was Josh Blue the favorite the entire way through LCS-4? I was here and I remember that Josh had stiff competition from Chris Porter for the "fans of adorable" vote--until Chris did a set that was mean-spirited and pro-drugs...and that lost it for Chris. I know that Josh wasn't my favorite that year...that I was fully in support of the better stand-up: Ty Barnett. Ty took second place simply by being funny every chance they gave him. Josh won for all of the reasons that people win competitions like this...it's about who you like and who you're willing to spend your time and energy voting for--which is rarely the same as simply an objective "this is who was better."

And while I do think that people will vote for Iliza...I don't think that people will vote for her with the same level of fervor that they will vote for Marcus...or for Jeff Dye...

pg--And that's not just because those are the two guys I actually know.--seattle

PS--And that sense that "America doesn't race to the phones simply to inform NBC of who they objectively determined was the funnier comedian on that particular show", shoepie, is what informs my gross generalizations of what I think America votes for... Yes, obviously, there are wonderful exceptions out there...exceptions often found here in the wizened and learned participators of the FORT... But, maybe I've grown too accustomed to my ESPN afternoons...where gross overgeneralizations and bold predictions are the rule (on shows like Pardon the Interruption, Around the Horn, Jim Rome is Burning, 1st and Ten, Mike & Mike in the Morning, etc.)...

Bottom line is, however, this is how I see it:

Jim & Louis will take fourth & fifth place. Iliza will take third. Jeff & Marcus battle for the top spot.

Could it go differently? Certainly. Could hott4hill be right about Iliza? Well, yes...but it would mean that the best analysis and exit polls in the country would be wrong about how the vote was going to go...and that hasn't happened since...well, since EVERY ELECTION OF THE PAST TEN YEARS.

(Not to get into politics, but I never thought it was possible that "America" would vote for a second Bush term...so, keep that in mind when reading any of my "taking the temperature of America"--but also remember that I'm more in tune with the pop culture universe than the real one.)

PPS--I don't know about you, but I'm certainly looking forward to tomorrow. Look for my report to come late though...as I won't be around to watch the show live! (ACCCKKK!)

[hott4hill]

Let's start with that last comment. I don't think that going up last in a two hour show is necessarily a benefit--as your audience isn't captive, the way that it is in a live theater/club. Two hours of television--especially if you've pretty much made up your mind to who you like and who you don't like--is a bit much.

I don't see how you can argue having the pimp spot is not a benefit. In 7 seasons of Idol, I believe there has been two people eliminated after going last. It's a proven fact that you have a better chance of getting more votes and not being bottom 3. In a very drawn out show like this, you are the last thing on everyone's mind.

Well, yes...but it would mean that the best analysis and exit polls in the country would be wrong about how the vote was going to go...and that hasn't happened since...well, since EVERY ELECTION OF THE PAST TEN YEARS.

What does exit polls have to do with Iliza winning LCS?

Also I think you are confusing people's popularity with support on message boards. The message board community is a completely demographic than the average viewer at home (which tends to make up the vast majority of the votes).

I won't argue with you though since it's pretty pointless and you only see it your way, and had to post a massive essay to tell me that

[pg13]

I don't see how you can argue having the pimp spot is not a benefit. In 7 seasons of Idol, I believe there has been two people eliminated after going last. It's a proven fact that you have a better chance of getting more votes and not being bottom 3. In a very drawn out show like this, you are the last thing on everyone's mind.

I can argue with it (or post a massive essay about it) because I have a different opinion about it, Hott4Hill...

As much as they've tried to make LCS more like Idol, there is a basic truth that comedy is not like singing. (Example: Watching people audition who can't sing is funny...watching people audition who can't be funny is...well, it isn't funny.)

A captive audience for comedy--say at a comedy show or a theater--reaches their maximum level of being able to keep their attention at about the 90 minute mark. I know this and can argue this...because this is what I do for a living and it's been proven true, time after time. Yes, there are certainly comedians and comedy shows that go longer than 90 minutes...but, regardless of how strong the performer or the show is...the audience's attention begins to lag after 90 minutes of paying attention--and comedy really only works when you pay attention, unlike music where you can still absorb and enjoy music more passively.

Now, the "audience" for the two hour performance finale of LCS wasn't captive. They were at home...with commercials, with bathroom breaks, meals, phone calls...all sorts of distractions that a captive live comedy audience doesn't deal with. To me--in my opinion--that suggests that it isn't such a dead-certain lock that the last performer on a two hour long comedy competition television show has the best position.

And, I'll say this again...it would only matter in the "leave them with the last impression" department if you believe that America hasn't already made up their mind about who they like... As I think that every performer did a fine job of showing what it is that they do--no one really shot the moon and no one, certainly, shot themselves in the foot last week...I don't think it matters as much as you think it does that Iliza went on last.

In fact, I think that people might not have been able to hold their attention throughout the entire show to really pay attention to her set at all... Again, my opinion is based on what I've heard from talking with other people...both in person and in scouring the internet for the opinions of those who care to comment on a show like this--people I'm considering to be "motivated agents" who are likely to represent how America will vote.

Will there be a Nixonian "silent majority" that comes through to give Iliza a victory? Possibly...but that's not where I'd place my bets, if I were a bettin' man.

What does exit polls have to do with Iliza winning LCS?

I was trying to make a joke...tying in your screen name (and my assumption that your screen name indicates an interest in the current American political process) with the disparity between what recent electoral exit polls have suggested (that Kerry would defeat Bush, easily, in 2004) and what actually happened.

The joke was meant to indicate my general good naturedness about this entire discussion on something as silly as a reality tv show...and to show that I'm well aware of how ludicrous it is for any of us to take this discussion more seriously than it deserves.

The fact that my joke didn't connect with you proves only that the producers knew what they were doing when they chose not to advance me past the SF auditions.

I won't argue with you though since it's pretty pointless and you only see it your way, and had to post a massive essay to tell me that

...you post a response arguing with me...and then you end that post saying that you won't argue with me because it's pointless?

Now, who's the comedian?

And obviously this is pointless and obviously I'm going to post about how I see it my way...

That neither means that it isn't fun to take something that is silly somewhat seriously, nor does it mean that I don't respect you and your opinions simply because we don't agree. In fact, the truth is that I'm showing how much I respect you and your opinions is BY ARGUING WITH THEM...as if they were pure foolishness, there'd be no point in bothering to discuss them...

Your opinions have merit--I disagree with your conclusions...and that's, I'm pretty sure, the fun of a message board discussion, isn't it?

AND YES, I TYPE A LOT.

For heavens sake, go back and read some of my official recaps from last season--better yet, don't...because you wouldn't want to miss tomorrow night's show!

I make no apologies for typing a lot (I happen to type very fast)...nor will I apologize for expressing myself clearly. I may make my opinions seem more bold than perhaps you think I should simply because I believe in what I'm saying, based on my observations and my considerable experience in this field--but I've never suggested that what I'm saying is anything more than my opinion...and everyone is entitled to sharing and discussing their own opinions...

You don't have to agree with what I'm saying. You don't even have to read what I'm typing.

But I, for one, continue to have fun sharing this reality tv show experience with others who are watching it and thinking about it...and I, for one, continue to have fun reading about what other people think about it.

Make of that what you will.

pg--I can make a hat. Or a broach.--seattle

[football_chick]

I, for one, enjoy pg's massive essays... they're very insightful.

My philosophy is simple: I enjoy the comics who can make me laugh out loud. Not the ones who make me say "Wow, that was cool" like Marcus' impressions. But, the ones who make me bust a gut. Right now those comics are Jeff Dye, Jim Tavare, and Louis Ramey. <- I hope I got the spelling correct?

[Tigerusty]

I can argue with it (or post a massive essay about it) because I have a different opinion about it, Hott4Hill...

As much as they've tried to make LCS more like Idol, there is a basic truth that comedy is not like singing. (Example: Watching people audition who can't sing is funny...watching people audition who can't be funny is...well, it isn't funny.)

A captive audience for comedy--say at a comedy show or a theater--reaches their maximum level of being able to keep their attention at about the 90 minute mark. I know this and can argue this...because this is what I do for a living and it's been proven true, time after time. Yes, there are certainly comedians and comedy shows that go longer than 90 minutes...but, regardless of how strong the performer or the show is...the audience's attention begins to lag after 90 minutes of paying attention--and comedy really only works when you pay attention, unlike music where you can still absorb and enjoy music more passively.

Now, the "audience" for the two hour performance finale of LCS wasn't captive. They were at home...with commercials, with bathroom breaks, meals, phone calls...all sorts of distractions that a captive live comedy audience doesn't deal with. To me--in my opinion--that suggests that it isn't such a dead-certain lock that the last performer on a two hour long comedy competition television show has the best position.

And, I'll say this again...it would only matter in the "leave them with the last impression" department if you believe that America hasn't already made up their mind about who they like... As I think that every performer did a fine job of showing what it is that they do--no one really shot the moon and no one, certainly, shot themselves in the foot last week...I don't think it matters as much as you think it does that Iliza went on last.

In fact, I think that people might not have been able to hold their attention throughout the entire show to really pay attention to her set at all... Again, my opinion is based on what I've heard from talking with other people...both in person and in scouring the internet for the opinions of those who care to comment on a show like this--people I'm considering to be "motivated agents" who are likely to represent how America will vote.

Will there be a Nixonian "silent majority" that comes through to give Iliza a victory? Possibly...but that's not where I'd place my bets, if I were a bettin' man.




I was trying to make a joke...tying in your screen name (and my assumption that your screen name indicates an interest in the current American political process) with the disparity between what recent electoral exit polls have suggested (that Kerry would defeat Bush, easily, in 2004) and what actually happened.

The joke was meant to indicate my general good naturedness about this entire discussion on something as silly as a reality tv show...and to show that I'm well aware of how ludicrous it is for any of us to take this discussion more seriously than it deserves.

The fact that my joke didn't connect with you proves only that the producers knew what they were doing when they chose not to advance me past the SF auditions.




...you post a response arguing with me...and then you end that post saying that you won't argue with me because it's pointless?

Now, who's the comedian?

And obviously this is pointless and obviously I'm going to post about how I see it my way...

That neither means that it isn't fun to take something that is silly somewhat seriously, nor does it mean that I don't respect you and your opinions simply because we don't agree. In fact, the truth is that I'm showing how much I respect you and your opinions is BY ARGUING WITH THEM...as if they were pure foolishness, there'd be no point in bothering to discuss them...

Your opinions have merit--I disagree with your conclusions...and that's, I'm pretty sure, the fun of a message board discussion, isn't it?

AND YES, I TYPE A LOT.

For heavens sake, go back and read some of my official recaps from last season--better yet, don't...because you wouldn't want to miss tomorrow night's show!

I make no apologies for typing a lot (I happen to type very fast)...nor will I apologize for expressing myself clearly. I may make my opinions seem more bold than perhaps you think I should simply because I believe in what I'm saying, based on my observations and my considerable experience in this field--but I've never suggested that what I'm saying is anything more than my opinion...and everyone is entitled to sharing and discussing their own opinions...

You don't have to agree with what I'm saying. You don't even have to read what I'm typing.

But I, for one, continue to have fun sharing this reality tv show experience with others who are watching it and thinking about it...and I, for one, continue to have fun reading about what other people think about it.

Make of that what you will.

pg--I can make a hat. Or a broach.--seattle

Well, that's just your opinion.

[pg13]

Well, that's just your opinion.

No, seriously, I CAN make a hat or a broach out of it.

pg--Nobody believes me. WHY DON'T THEY BELIEVE ME???--seattle

[Rattus]

Just a quick drug-addled agreement with pg13's assessment about the 90-minute mark. I was reading the posts about the prior week's show, when I realized that I had no idea how it ended. I had to watch the entire thing again in order to remind myself that I had indeed watched the entire program, but had completely forgotten the last two acts (still don't remember who they were). That means that I clocked out at about 90 minutes in.

[hott4hill]

I can argue with it (or post a massive essay about it) because I have a different opinion about it, Hott4Hill...

I made one post about how I thought Iliza was the clear winner giving reasons why I thought so. It really wasn't aimed at anyone it's was just a comment. Then I get you posting this massive essay basically telling me that my opinion was crap and here are all the the reasons why. Whether that's how you meant it or not, I felt it was slightly condescending.

To me--in my opinion--that suggests that it isn't such a dead-certain lock that the last performer on a two hour long comedy competition television show has the best position.

I'm not saying it's a dead lock for sure win or anything. I am just saying that history has proven that going last has it's advantages. Not just on Idol or SYTYCD, but basically every show that has a public voting base. It's really not an opinion, it's moreso just a fact. Very few people ever get eliminated after going last or reach the bottom. In fact in most finales for talent shows, the person to go last usually wins. I guess the best analogy I have is a baseball team playing at home verus away. While it's not a for sure that they will win at home, statistics show us that the odds are way higher of them winning when they play at home verus not at home.