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Thread: For animal lovers

  1. #16011
    FORT Fogey I'm here's Avatar
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    Re: For animal lovers

    Quote Originally Posted by prhoshay View Post
    Unfortunately, with all medical situations, the doc can only give you and educated guess as to what is going to happen. Just like with people. No one can really give you a sure answer. It's like playing Russian Roulette.....do you roll the dice or not? With people, how many people go to the doctor, get a "clean bill of health" and die the next day? It happens more than you think. There are NO guarantees. That is hard, but it's a fact.
    I fully agree with you in that.... but this vet... she actually said otherwise... didn't say she could cure my cat... but definitively said over and over and over again... I can give him many more years if you let me do radiation. She then went on to tell me of her cat... with the same cancer... in the same place.

    But you are correct in saying... its like Russian Roulette... I handed $7,000 to the vet.... she rolled ball... and "the house" aka her practice won.

    False hope *shakes head*

  2. #16012
    Signed, Sealed, Delivered prhoshay's Avatar
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    Re: For animal lovers

    Humanly speaking, there is NO way she could have known that. All cats (animals) are not alike and can't be expected to have the same outcome. I do understand wanting to hang on to any hope, though. Try not to beat yourself up so much.
    "...each affects the other, and the other affects the next, and the world is full of stories, but the stories are all one." - Mitch Albom, one helluva writer

    When you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, you know which one you hit by the one that yelps!

  3. #16013
    FORT Fogey KatesMom's Avatar
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    Re: For animal lovers

    I agree that there are no guarantees in life. I also agree that all people can do is make an educated guess. What I don't agree with, based on what we have heard, is that this vet did right by anyone. As many know, I'm a lawyer. I never make promises to clients. I never tell someone we are definitely going to win or we are definitely going to get this amount of money. Anyone who does is not a good lawyer. Because the bottom line is there are so many things that are out of my control and there are so many variables that could affect the outcome. As a good lawyer, my job is to set out ALL the risks and options as best I can and let the client make the decision they are most comfortable with. This vet's job was the same thing. This cat was dying and this owner was desperate to hang on. The vet took advantage of that and gave her false hope. My vet was very clear about giving me ALL the options with regard to Bailey and what the consequences could be. Maybe something unexpected did happen during the surgery - or even afterwards that no one could plan for. Maybe the cat ended up having a heart attack, totally unrelated to the surgery. The lack of communication or response from the vet makes me strongly suspect this was not the case. Even in my case, the vet was very clear that Bailey had cancer and we could do this surgery and she could still die of a heart attack tomorrow - that there are no guarantees in life. I may be wrong, but I do not get the feeling from I'm here's posts that this vet said any of that to her. This vet knew what she wanted to hear and what would get her money, and this vet said it. Was it illegal? Probably not. But was it unethical and just icky - yep, definitely.

    I'm here, I know it is hard, but fretting about the decision you made will drive you insane. You loved your cat and you gave him a great life. He loved you and loved every minute of his life with you. No decision you made will change either of those facts. I know it sounds really stupid, but I have heard it done with people and it helps - have you ever thought of writing a letter to your kitty? Telling him everything you wish you could have told him before he died? We can only make the best decision in front of us, given the information we have at the time. You did that - you made a decision out of love and thinking you could really save your kitty. It didn't work - but that doesn't change the underlying motivations for you making the decision. It is human nature to always wonder 'what if', but that will only drive you crazy. I have had to work really hard at making decisions and then living with the consequences. I try very hard not to look back. And just because you may have made a different decision with more information does not mean that your kitty wouldn't have had a worse death another way. That is another thing I have had to focus on - when we look back, we always assume the alternative decision would have resulted in a better outcome. That's not always true. Sometimes life knows better than we do, and things happen for the best in the long run, even if we can't see it. I think what happened with my Bear is exactly that, just like I mentioned to you yesterday. Another example for me was having my kids via c-section. Like the universe knew I couldn't handle labor, but wanted kids, so my daughter was breech and things ended up working out. I think our job is to make the best decision we can when it is front of us, given the information we have. If we do that, then the universe takes care of itself - even if we don't understand.
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  4. #16014
    FORT Fogey I'm here's Avatar
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    Re: For animal lovers

    Quote Originally Posted by KatesMom View Post
    I agree that there are no guarantees in life. I also agree that all people can do is make an educated guess. What I don't agree with, based on what we have heard, is that this vet did right by anyone. As many know, I'm a lawyer. I never make promises to clients. I never tell someone we are definitely going to win or we are definitely going to get this amount of money. Anyone who does is not a good lawyer. Because the bottom line is there are so many things that are out of my control and there are so many variables that could affect the outcome. As a good lawyer, my job is to set out ALL the risks and options as best I can and let the client make the decision they are most comfortable with. This vet's job was the same thing. This cat was dying and this owner was desperate to hang on. The vet took advantage of that and gave her false hope. My vet was very clear about giving me ALL the options with regard to Bailey and what the consequences could be. Maybe something unexpected did happen during the surgery - or even afterwards that no one could plan for. Maybe the cat ended up having a heart attack, totally unrelated to the surgery. The lack of communication or response from the vet makes me strongly suspect this was not the case. Even in my case, the vet was very clear that Bailey had cancer and we could do this surgery and she could still die of a heart attack tomorrow - that there are no guarantees in life. I may be wrong, but I do not get the feeling from I'm here's posts that this vet said any of that to her. This vet knew what she wanted to hear and what would get her money, and this vet said it. Was it illegal? Probably not. But was it unethical and just icky - yep, definitely.

    I'm here, I know it is hard, but fretting about the decision you made will drive you insane. You loved your cat and you gave him a great life. He loved you and loved every minute of his life with you. No decision you made will change either of those facts. I know it sounds really stupid, but I have heard it done with people and it helps - have you ever thought of writing a letter to your kitty? Telling him everything you wish you could have told him before he died? We can only make the best decision in front of us, given the information we have at the time. You did that - you made a decision out of love and thinking you could really save your kitty. It didn't work - but that doesn't change the underlying motivations for you making the decision. It is human nature to always wonder 'what if', but that will only drive you crazy. I have had to work really hard at making decisions and then living with the consequences. I try very hard not to look back. And just because you may have made a different decision with more information does not mean that your kitty wouldn't have had a worse death another way. That is another thing I have had to focus on - when we look back, we always assume the alternative decision would have resulted in a better outcome. That's not always true. Sometimes life knows better than we do, and things happen for the best in the long run, even if we can't see it. I think what happened with my Bear is exactly that, just like I mentioned to you yesterday. Another example for me was having my kids via c-section. Like the universe knew I couldn't handle labor, but wanted kids, so my daughter was breech and things ended up working out. I think our job is to make the best decision we can when it is front of us, given the information we have. If we do that, then the universe takes care of itself - even if we don't understand.
    *reaches through computer and gives KatesMom a tight hug* If only you were around when I was going through this with my cat....

    I often think back on what I was supposed to learn through this awful experience... SECOND OPINIONS is first on the list. (but I actually thought I was doing that... since my vet recommended the cancer vet). But, I should have done my homework better.

    And... because of this experience... I will NEVER do such a thing to another animal. I tortured my cat. (not purposely)(but it was torture) My job was to love him, protect him and give him a great life and I failed him there.... because every day... for one month. I drove him to hell... aka.. the vet's office. They shaved his head on one side... where they would do the radiation. (The radiation definitely made him feel sick). And I know for certain he didn't like his head being shaved... as he loved being groomed. Before he started radiation treatments... every day when I would blow dry my hair... he would want to get blown dry too. He loved looking good... I think I caught him a few times looking in the mirror too. *giggles* Handsome fellow he was! But after the treatments started... he didn't want to be groomed anymore.

    No doubt... he is in kitty heaven... sitting in a beauty salon.
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  5. #16015
    FORT Fogey PGM35's Avatar
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    Re: For animal lovers

    Having a really hard time. It is getting closer and closer to the time when we really need to make the decision about Buddy. he is getting worse and worse. Not in pain but just not the same. I can't even write this without tearing up at the thought. He is in diapers now but he's having accidents every time he gets up. He doesn't stay dry long. Plus he stays up at night and just woofs. Not really a bark but just a woof. Like he wants something or someone to get him something but he doesn't even know what that is. Hard to explain but he's just not the same dog. I am not sure if this is what they mean by we'll know when its time. I think we know but we don't want to do it.

  6. #16016
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    Re: For animal lovers

    We all know, but like you say PGM35, we don't want to know.

    If the quality of his life isn't there, its time. Buddy will always live on in your heart. Maybe when he does woof, he's trying to tell you, its okay, I am weary.

    I am so sorry ( big hugs for you)

    FM
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  7. #16017
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    Re: For animal lovers

    Quote Originally Posted by PGM35 View Post
    Having a really hard time. It is getting closer and closer to the time when we really need to make the decision about Buddy. he is getting worse and worse. Not in pain but just not the same. I can't even write this without tearing up at the thought. He is in diapers now but he's having accidents every time he gets up. He doesn't stay dry long. Plus he stays up at night and just woofs. Not really a bark but just a woof. Like he wants something or someone to get him something but he doesn't even know what that is. Hard to explain but he's just not the same dog. I am not sure if this is what they mean by we'll know when its time. I think we know but we don't want to do it.
    When I sat in the vet's office with the news that my Tiny cat had kidney failure, I looked into her eyes and knew that she was gone already. It was incredibly sad and still is to think about it. But it was time. She was so far gone that her coat did not shine and she had a lost look in her eyes. I am glad I made the decision to stop her suffering but it still makes me feel terrible because I miss the healthy and wonderful cat that she used to be. I am so sorry for you to go through this. I will keep you in my thoughts.
    PGM35 likes this.

  8. #16018
    FORT Fogey PGM35's Avatar
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    Re: For animal lovers

    Quote Originally Posted by PGM35 View Post
    Having a really hard time. It is getting closer and closer to the time when we really need to make the decision about Buddy. he is getting worse and worse. Not in pain but just not the same. I can't even write this without tearing up at the thought. He is in diapers now but he's having accidents every time he gets up. He doesn't stay dry long. Plus he stays up at night and just woofs. Not really a bark but just a woof. Like he wants something or someone to get him something but he doesn't even know what that is. Hard to explain but he's just not the same dog. I am not sure if this is what they mean by we'll know when its time. I think we know but we don't want to do it.
    And then there are nights like tonight when he is like his old self. and I cannot imagine what I am thinking of doing. I cannot fathom taking him into the vet's office to do what we are thinking of doing. I see his old side and he is the same dog. We shared some chips just now. And he's sitting at my feet and he's wearing his diaper and he already went outside to potty and he hasn't had an accident and the diaper is dry. It's like he's saying, look Mama, I can be good. No accidents anymore. Ugh. this is so hard. But yesterday, I changed him 3 times before I left for work and twice at the noon hour and then twice after work and then twice more before bed, and his woofing incident at 2AM and a poopy accident at 3AM....

  9. #16019
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    Re: For animal lovers

    Quote Originally Posted by PGM35 View Post
    And then there are nights like tonight when he is like his old self. and I cannot imagine what I am thinking of doing. I cannot fathom taking him into the vet's office to do what we are thinking of doing. I see his old side and he is the same dog. We shared some chips just now. And he's sitting at my feet and he's wearing his diaper and he already went outside to potty and he hasn't had an accident and the diaper is dry. It's like he's saying, look Mama, I can be good. No accidents anymore. Ugh. this is so hard. But yesterday, I changed him 3 times before I left for work and twice at the noon hour and then twice after work and then twice more before bed, and his woofing incident at 2AM and a poopy accident at 3AM....
    My heart aches when I read this. I know what you are going through.
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  10. #16020
    FORT Fogey PGM35's Avatar
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    Re: For animal lovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fanny Mare View Post
    My heart aches when I read this. I know what you are going through.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cootie View Post
    I will keep you in my thoughts.
    Thank you both.

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