Things That Make You go....HUH?

[Poppy Fields]

My son, John, is mobility challenged and does not drive. Yesterday I took him to the DMV photo licensing center to renew his state photo ID. In the camera queue ahead of us was a woman in a burka (you know, the kind of head to foot covering with just an oblong cutout for the eyes with mesh over it). She was not required to EXPOSE HER FACE for her driver's license photo. WTH? I live in Pennsylvania.

[Tilden]

The last time I renewed my driver's license, the older woman in front of me had to take the eye test four times--and that's with her corrective lenses--before she could pass it, and they still renewed her license.

I made sure she was well out of the parking lot and gone before I left.

[Bunny555]

My son, John, is mobility challenged and does not drive. Yesterday I took him to the DMV photo licensing center to renew his state photo ID. In the camera queue ahead of us was a woman in a burka (you know, the kind of head to foot covering with just an oblong cutout for the eyes with mesh over it). She was not required to EXPOSE HER FACE for her driver's license photo. WTH? I live in Pennsylvania.

Had I known this, I would have sported a burka for my most recent DMV photo. It looks like a mugshot. IMO allowing people to cover their face isn't cool. If you want the privilege, you play by the rules.

[Tilden]

This may be a very silly question, but if the woman in question wouldn't remove her veil to have her photograph taken, then I presume she wouldn't remove it to drive either. Is it possible to drive safely in a burka? I would think it would make it difficult to see all the angles you might need to see, and even the best mirrors still allow for blind spots.

I understand the other concerns--if a license is used for I.D. purposes, as it often is, how could a photograph that doesn't show any distinguishing features be used in that way?--but would it even be a good idea for someone in a burka to be driving? For that matter, if she is conservative enough to wear a full burka at all times in public, would her upbringing even encourage women to drive?

Or am I misunderstanding, and was she just getting an I.D. card (which doesn't solve the photograph issue but does explain the rest)?

[Poppy Fields]

This may be a very silly question, but if the woman in question wouldn't remove her veil to have her photograph taken, then I presume she wouldn't remove it to drive either. Is it possible to drive safely in a burka? I would think it would make it difficult to see all the angles you might need to see, and even the best mirrors still allow for blind spots.

I understand the other concerns--if a license is used for I.D. purposes, as it often is, how could a photograph that doesn't show any distinguishing features be used in that way?--but would it even be a good idea for someone in a burka to be driving? For that matter, if she is conservative enough to wear a full burka at all times in public, would her upbringing even encourage women to drive?

Or am I misunderstanding, and was she just getting an I.D. card (which doesn't solve the photograph issue but does explain the rest)?

Muslin women in traditional burkas are a rare sight where I live, but we do have many Muslim women in head and face veils in everywhere. Their veils cover all their features but eyes and forehead. They certainly drive. One is my favorite bank teller.

I don't know if the lady in the burka was renewing a driver's license or a photo i.d. Certainly, the majority of people with camera cards are renewing licenses but it's quite possible she was getting her i.d. renewed, as my son was.

My conern was that a state issued photo i.d. should show your face, without exception. She did not refuse to remove it - no one asked her to. And, yeah, Bunny, I'd have worn a burka for my last one, too, had I known it was an option.

I'm pretty sure they buy special cameras that make everyone look hideious. In mine, I resemble a fish.

[Tilden]

I could see driving with just the regular veils worn by Muslim women, but I was concerned that a full-out burka might interfere with peripheral vision more than a regular veil would. For that matter, I'm not sure how easy it would be to drive in a burka, just because of all the flowing material everywhere, but I've never worn one either. Maybe once you're used to the way they're made, they're no more trouble to drive in than anything else.

[MRD]

We cannot force someone to do something against their religion, like removing a burka or saying Native Americans can't practice their beliefs without using peyote (the actually have a waiver from the govt for that)
To a devout Muslim, removing the veil in public is akin to going naked and they don't make us go naked at the DMV. Thank God.

[Tilden]

I think the concern is that if you can't tell who someone is from the photo on the I.D., should it be used in situations where photo I.D.s are required? If it can't, it could possibly be used by someone else, which completely defeats the purpose of matching I.D.s to people's faces. Granted, most DMV and passport photos are pretty bad, but if you don't even have a shot of matching person to photo because the person's face is completely obscured, then how much good is the photo I.D. in the first place? How many places will accept it or should be required to accept it?

[pikachu]

I would think in a case like that, the woman should be required to remove the burka for the driver license photo. She could get a separate photo id with it on to use in situations where id is required but she doesn't want to reveal her face. Although, as someone else pointed out, what's the point in doing a photo id if the person's face is covered?? It could be anyone wearing a burka and you wouldn't be able to tell if it was the same person.

[KatesMom]

I think the concern is that if you can't tell who someone is from the photo on the I.D., should it be used in situations where photo I.D.s are required? If it can't, it could possibly be used by someone else, which completely defeats the purpose of matching I.D.s to people's faces. Granted, most DMV and passport photos are pretty bad, but if you don't even have a shot of matching person to photo because the person's face is completely obscured, then how much good is the photo I.D. in the first place? How many places will accept it or should be required to accept it?

But if it is her religious belief, isn't she going to be wearing the burka where ever she goes - such that she will match her picture? I don't look very much like my driver's license picture - that was about 60 pounds ago, about 5 years ago and a totally different hairstyle ago. How many people are using driver's licenses and swapping them out for others - aside from college students? Realistically how much risk is there really here? I'm just a bit concerned about the comment that they should be made to take off their burka. If it is as myrosiedog says and this is part of their religion and it would be akin to asking us to pose naked, well, then I have a problem with that. Now if the question is whether they are really qualified to drive, then that's another thing. But I guess I just don't see the risk here and would be very concerned about treating someone differently because of their religion.