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Thread: Things That Make You go....HUH?

  1. #11
    Wild thang Rattus's Avatar
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    Re: Things That Make You go....HUH?

    Quote Originally Posted by KatesMom View Post
    But if it is her religious belief, isn't she going to be wearing the burka where ever she goes - such that she will match her picture?
    Yes, she will, but in a case of necessity they wouldn't be able to identify her from her photo. I don't know what the standards are in the U.S. regarding passport photos, but in Canada you have to brush your bangs back if you have them, remove your glasses, keep makeup to a minimum and wipe that smirk off of your face, even if you spend every day of your life sporting that Sarah Palin look. If needs be, the border people can wipe your face down and check against your passport that way, and the same standards really should apply for any serious ID requirements - driving, voting, healthcards, etc.
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  2. #12
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    Re: Things That Make You go....HUH?

    Quote Originally Posted by KatesMom View Post
    But if it is her religious belief, isn't she going to be wearing the burka where ever she goes - such that she will match her picture? I don't look very much like my driver's license picture - that was about 60 pounds ago, about 5 years ago and a totally different hairstyle ago. How many people are using driver's licenses and swapping them out for others - aside from college students? Realistically how much risk is there really here? I'm just a bit concerned about the comment that they should be made to take off their burka. If it is as myrosiedog says and this is part of their religion and it would be akin to asking us to pose naked, well, then I have a problem with that. Now if the question is whether they are really qualified to drive, then that's another thing. But I guess I just don't see the risk here and would be very concerned about treating someone differently because of their religion.
    Well, yes, she would be wearing a burka wherever she goes, so the photo will look like her--and it will look just as much like anyone else in a burka, and therein lies the problem. Even weight gains or changes in hairstyle might still not completely obscure all distinctive facial features. I don't look exactly like my driver's license photo either, but it's still a reasonable match. As for people "swapping" I.D.s, it doesn't matter if you're in college or a nursing home, it's still illegal, and for good reason. If you can steal someone's identity via using his/her I.D., you can get that person in trouble as well as yourself. It's not just other people, like store owners, who can get in trouble for accepting an incorrect I.D. The person whose I.D. it is can get in trouble as well, or at least be inconvenienced--a photo that could be a photo of virtually anyone could be used inappropriately that much more easily.

    This isn't just about religion. I can see why no person/organization who/which requires a photo I.D. might hesitate to accept a photo that obscured all facial features regardless of what was causing the face to be obscured. If it's a question of religious freedom, however, then perhaps there needs to be another option created for acceptable I.D.s for people who cannot have their facial features photographed. I don't know what that would be, but I suspect something could be figured out.

    As for the risk, for day to day activities, there's some risk and maybe it could be seen as negligible. But when it comes to driver's licenses, passports etc. being used for travel, that is, unfortunately, now a big deal. I'm not just picking on Muslims here either. Or, for that matter, the United States. It's not just this country that's getting much more vigilant about matching I.D.s to travelers, and if a burka--or any other article of clothing--makes a photo I.D. unclear, then that's quite likely going to be a problem for the person using it to travel.

    And frankly, I still don't see the point of having a photo I.D. if the photo doesn't indicate who the person is who holds it. A social security card or a credit card would be as accurate an I.D. at that point.

  3. #13
    FORT Fogey KatesMom's Avatar
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    Re: Things That Make You go....HUH?

    Ok, so this peaked my interest and I did a little search. Apparently in Florida there was actually a woman who sued because she was not permitted to keep her burka on to take her driver's license photo. The State basically held that accommodations could be made - she could be taken in another private room in front of just one female employee and then take off her burka to have her picture taken - if she wanted the privilege of driving. There are apparently 15 states that permit a woman to leave her burka on and/or do not require a picture on driver's licenses. I didn't see what the alternative was in those states. Just thought it was interesting - so hope you all do too.

  4. #14
    Best Ever Pool Runner Angry Birds Champion, Rancho Ice Racer Champion pikachu's Avatar
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    Re: Things That Make You go....HUH?

    I understand about respecting someone's religious beliefs. However, we do have rules in our society that our there to protect it's members so I don't think it's asking too much to ask a woman to reveal her face just for a driver license picture. They could take her in another room and have a woman take the picture or make whatever other reasonable accomodations that are necessary. Living in our country means accepting abiding by our rules and laws, IMO.

    If this is a big issue for a lot of people, perhaps there could be special driver licenses available to people of that religion with some other means of identification used besides a picture.

  5. #15
    Ellie May SugarMama's Avatar
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    Re: Things That Make You go....HUH?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poppy Fields View Post
    My son, John, is mobility challenged and does not drive. Yesterday I took him to the DMV photo licensing center to renew his state photo ID. In the camera queue ahead of us was a woman in a burka (you know, the kind of head to foot covering with just an oblong cutout for the eyes with mesh over it). She was not required to EXPOSE HER FACE for her driver's license photo. WTH? I live in Pennsylvania.
    That would make for easy ID theft! That's stupid in my opinion. But too many things are these days.

    She should consider herself lucky, I suppose. If she lived in Saudia Arabia and a few other Sharia countries, she wouldn't be allowed to drive at all.
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  6. #16
    Ellie May SugarMama's Avatar
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    Re: Things That Make You go....HUH?

    Driver's license photos are not only used for the license purpose anymore. Of course, in the "old days" it was to assist a policeman who pulled you over to know that you were who the license said it was, as well as a valid photo ID. Now that DL's are digitized, they're also used for BOLO's (be on the look out), missing person alerts (they're immediately accessible for distribution to mass media, released by the proper authorities), etc. As the practice (IF I should say) grows in the U.S. (which I hope it does not because it indicates a shift towards Sharia), then how will one identify one burka-wearing woman from another? In fact, soldiers in Afghanistan have found MEN wearing burkas as a disguise.
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    Re: Things That Make You go....HUH?

    Out of curiosity, I did a little checking, because I thought I'd read some debate about burkas and religious freedom before. Technically, the Koran itself only indicates that women should veil their chests/bosoms. Some radical factions of Islam have expanded that to mean that a woman should veil every part of the body, hence the burkas, but it was never originally required by Islam. Most Muslim women worldwide, however, wear only some version of a head scarf that at least shows their eyes. They may dress modestly as well, but they don't wear a full-out burka.

    What I find odd is the dichotomy of wearing the burka and wishing to have a driver's license or even a photo I.D., since the same radically conservative Islamic sects, most notably the Taliban, that insist upon the burka also severely limit a woman's freedom. I seriously doubt women in such sects would be encouraged to drive, as it would give them too much liberty. There's actually a saying among the men of such groups that translates to "Women belong in two places--the home and the grave."

    I suspect the fact that the burka isn't universally required by the Muslim world (most Muslims do not, in fact, require it, and some Middle Eastern countries have even banned it) may have something to do with the fact that some states have had grounds to insist that it not be worn in photo I.D.s because it obscures the face. From what I can tell, it's more like a cultural tradition than a strictly religious custom. And it isn't the equivalent of wearing, say, a yamulke or turban in a photo I.D. because they still allow for a clear view of the face. Same thing with nuns in full habit, though fewer and fewer nuns even wear veils anymore, much less a full habit.

  8. #18
    Got wings 9/19/2012 buglover's Avatar
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    Re: Things That Make You go....HUH?

    I'm all for religious freedom but the rule should be the same across the boards. My son was not allowed to wear his fake glasses (because he has no eyebrows he likes to frame his face) nor was he allowed to wear his beanie even though it wouldn't obstruct the view of his face. Oh well.......life is life I guess.
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  9. #19
    FORT Fogey KatesMom's Avatar
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    Re: Things That Make You go....HUH?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilden View Post
    Out of curiosity, I did a little checking, because I thought I'd read some debate about burkas and religious freedom before. Technically, the Koran itself only indicates that women should veil their chests/bosoms. Some radical factions of Islam have expanded that to mean that a woman should veil every part of the body, hence the burkas, but it was never originally required by Islam. Most Muslim women worldwide, however, wear only some version of a head scarf that at least shows their eyes. They may dress modestly as well, but they don't wear a full-out burka.

    What I find odd is the dichotomy of wearing the burka and wishing to have a driver's license or even a photo I.D., since the same radically conservative Islamic sects, most notably the Taliban, that insist upon the burka also severely limit a woman's freedom. I seriously doubt women in such sects would be encouraged to drive, as it would give them too much liberty. There's actually a saying among the men of such groups that translates to "Women belong in two places--the home and the grave."

    I suspect the fact that the burka isn't universally required by the Muslim world (most Muslims do not, in fact, require it, and some Middle Eastern countries have even banned it) may have something to do with the fact that some states have had grounds to insist that it not be worn in photo I.D.s because it obscures the face. From what I can tell, it's more like a cultural tradition than a strictly religious custom. And it isn't the equivalent of wearing, say, a yamulke or turban in a photo I.D. because they still allow for a clear view of the face. Same thing with nuns in full habit, though fewer and fewer nuns even wear veils anymore, much less a full habit.
    Agreed. The other part of the ruling, at least from what I can tell, is that despite what some may think, we do not have a right to drive. We have the privilege of driving, provided we comply with all applicable rules and regulations. I think this is another hook, so to speak, for requiring her to remove it. If she does not, that is her choice, but then she loses the privilege of being able to drive.

  10. #20
    Ellie May SugarMama's Avatar
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    Re: Things That Make You go....HUH?

    Quote Originally Posted by KatesMom View Post
    Agreed. The other part of the ruling, at least from what I can tell, is that despite what some may think, we do not have a right to drive. We have the privilege of driving, provided we comply with all applicable rules and regulations. I think this is another hook, so to speak, for requiring her to remove it. If she does not, that is her choice, but then she loses the privilege of being able to drive.
    I totally agree. The burka is a cultural thing. I'm so tired of multi-culturalism. If you don't like our rules and laws, which are reasonable and fair, then go to a country which has laws that suit you. Again, in Saudia Arabia women aren't allowed to drive. But they love the burka. I'm just getting very, very, very tired of the miniscule minority forcing change in our laws. Embrace the country, embrace the laws -- there are many Muslim, hajib/burka -loving countries in the world.

    Sorry if that sounds harsh.
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