1. ## Re: FORT Koffee Klatch

Isn't there a games thread that would be better suited for this question as well as the poker discussions?

2. ## Re: FORT Koffee Klatch

Originally Posted by Miss Scarlet
It all comes down to something I've said for years:
The rich can afford it. The poor get it for free. And the guy in the middle is stuck paying for it all, or doing without.

This applies to rent, utilities, food, medical care, dental care, visual care, even college.

It's just wrong.
reminds me of this: I googled it to find it but I've heard it before.

Not a Bible parable, obviously, but one of the best analogies I’ve ever seen to explain the downfall of Socialist taxation policies.

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to \$100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes,it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay \$1.
The sixth would pay \$3.
The seventh would pay \$7.
The eighth would pay \$12.
The ninth would pay \$18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay \$59.

So, that’s what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. ‘Since you are all such good customers,’ he said, ‘I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by \$20.’ Drinks for the ten now cost just \$80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free.

But what about the other six men – the paying customers? How could they divide the \$20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘fair share?’

They realized that \$20 divided by six is \$3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100%savings).
The sixth now paid \$2 instead of \$3 (33%savings).
The seventh now paid \$5 instead of \$7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid \$9 instead of \$12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid \$14 instead of \$18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid \$49 instead of \$59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

‘I only got a dollar out of the \$20,’ declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, ‘but he got \$10!’

‘Yeah, that’s right,’ exclaimed the fifth man. ‘I only saved a dollar, too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I got!’

‘That’s true!!’ shouted the seventh man. ‘Why should he get \$10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!’

‘Wait a minute,’ yelled the first four men in unison. ‘We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!’

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works!!

The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

3. ## Re: FORT Koffee Klatch

If you look at Forbes' or any other annual list of the "happiest countries in the world", you will consistently find the Social Democracies of Scandinavia; Denmark, Norway, Finland, and Sweden, in the top five. These people are happy despite high taxes because of the social equality that allows all to prosper together. Their Socialist Democracies afford all to have 'cradle to grave' coverage for healthcare, education (as high as you want to go), childcare, housing, etc. They have among the highest entrepreneurship of all countries because of the safety net that allows people to take risks without fear of losing everything.

Canada is also always high up on the happy list. I don't know anything about the Canadian tax system, but it seems to enable a universal healthcare system and I think that does add to one's satisfaction with their government. Maybe there is more social equality in Canada, too? I don't know.

4. ## Re: FORT Koffee Klatch

Originally Posted by Punkin
Canada is also always high up on the happy list. I don't know anything about the Canadian tax system, but it seems to enable a universal healthcare system and I think that does add to one's satisfaction with their government.
The limited examples I know of how the Canadian healthcare system works is that it largely doesn't. Pretty good if you don't need it, barely there if at all if you do, and not unexpectedly a major source of stress. Especially bad in the eastern marine provinces. I'll take the US system, thank you.

5. ## Re: FORT Koffee Klatch

Originally Posted by Brooks
The limited examples I know of how the Canadian healthcare system works is that it largely doesn't. Pretty good if you don't need it, barely there if at all if you do, and not unexpectedly a major source of stress. Especially bad in the eastern marine provinces. I'll take the US system, thank you.
I am 62 and I have never had a problem with our system, it woks. It works really well. At least is healthcare for everyone, no need to check your bank book

6. ## Re: FORT Koffee Klatch

Originally Posted by Fanny Mare
I am 62 and I have never had a problem with our system, it works. It works really well. At least is healthcare for everyone, no need to check your bank book
I agree the government (well, taxes) seem to be paying for it, but when critical services are put off for a year or more because of a shortage of specialists or denied altogether based on an absurd triage system, I can't consider that healthcare for "everyone".

7. ## Re: FORT Koffee Klatch

Originally Posted by Brooks
I agree the government (well, taxes) seem to be paying for it, but when critical services are put off for a year or more because of a shortage of specialists or denied altogether based on an absurd triage system, I can't consider that healthcare for "everyone".
I don't know anyone that has been put off for a year-I know there is healthcare for everyone because I live here. I know that I have never waited..my neighbour had a lung transplant, my father in law had several heart surgeries,I saw a specialist this morning after waiting a whole 2 weeks - who is waiting?

8. ## Re: FORT Koffee Klatch

Originally Posted by Fanny Mare
I don't know anyone that has been put off for a year-I know there is healthcare for everyone because I live here. I know that I have never waited..my neighbour had a lung transplant, my father in law had several heart surgeries,I saw a specialist this morning after waiting a whole 2 weeks - who is waiting?
Perhaps it's different depending on the province, but the *only* healthcare stories I've heard from friends in Canada have been disasters with treatment either refused (until it was too late to do anything) or put off for a year while the person (a very young adult) was in agony. Not the way it would have been handled here. Doctors holding themselves up as gods, refusing copies of medical records, refusing to discuss cases, refusing second opinions. I'm not surprised if this isn't everyone's experience in Canada because it would mean the entire healthcare system had collapsed, but it's nothing I would intentionally submit myself to.

9. ## Re: FORT Koffee Klatch

I think there were a lot of rumours spread about Canadian healthcare when the US was debating universal care (though there was hardly a debate), and the intent was to disparage universal care. I would trust a Canadian's first-person assessment over third-hand rumours, to be fair.

The other question I would ask a Canadian is, "Do you feel there is a basic equality among your countrymen? Do you feel there is a favored class with more or unfair advantages? (Perhaps we should leave Quebec out of the question since I think they have "issues"?)

Full disclosure: I am a 'sort of' Canadian, or at least I fancy myself to be. My dad was born in Winnipeg where my grandparents stopped for a while on the way from Denmark to San Francisco. And I love Canadians. So, there's that. Maybe the Scandinavian roots explain my attraction to the Social Democracy form of government. I am the first to admit I am among the very luckiest minority in humankind to have been raised in the 20th Century in the USofA! So, I'm not complaining, (I got the extra added bonus of 'Caucasian' to boot!) but here in my golden years, I know my psyche would be more comfortable in a more egalitarian society than this. I don't like it when people need help feeding their kids and get called names for it.

10. ## Re: FORT Koffee Klatch

Originally Posted by Punkin
I think there were a lot of rumours spread about Canadian healthcare when the US was debating universal care (though there was hardly a debate), and the intent was to disparage universal care. I would trust a Canadian's first-person assessment over third-hand rumours, to be fair.
OK, but from my standpoint I'm basing what I said on extensive first-person assessments by Canadian friends, not rumors, and nothing to do with trying to disparge universal care. I'm sure what my friends told me was true. I'm also willing to accept what Fanny Mare described as her experience as being true but I'm not sure I'm prepared yet to believe it's typical.

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