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Thread: *Improving the Show*

  1. #121
    FORT Fogey veg_out's Avatar
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    Re: *Improving the Show*

    Quote Originally Posted by karalott;3908802;

    I remember Tom saying once if people want to see ballroom, they should watch the PBS ballroom challenge. It's a show devoted to ballroom dancing and hopefully the show never changes that, because they aren't going to get the younger demographic. Everything they've tried doing has failed in that regard. I agree with you and have said numerous times that relying heavily on gimmicks and props has really taken something away from the show. Back in the early seasons, there was none of that, and they were still able to come out with wonderful, memorable, hard routines.
    Since I've only watched this season in full, I have no idea about the earlier seasons except for the clips I've seen on you-tube. From those, it was closer to ballroom with less gimmicks and tricks which allowed for more content in the dances. Now there's a lot of strolling to the stairs or dancing on chairs which lends itself more to a casino show than a ballroom competition.

    Tony and Maks said in a recent interview that the expectations have changed as well. When they reviewed footage of season 2, the choreography was much simpler (closer to ballroom), but now, it's over the top.

    If we hold to the truest sense of the word "competition," then it's people judged for the exact same thing based on the exact same criteria. What are those criteria? I know what Len looks for, but CA and Bruno just want flash. CA might be the lift police, but she's too swept up in the performance that she doesn't always see the dancing. Bruno is Bruno.

    I wish each judge "policed" a certain element: Len overall ballroom technique, CA posture/footwork, Bruno overall performance or whatever. Not only would they have a defined purpose but the feedback would be constructive and helpful to the pro and dancer. The audience would know where the marks come from!

    But for it to change into a credible scoring system, it would mean the sacrifice of the show's manipulation. Right now, the show can control the outcome by directing the judging. Even with the change, they probably still could, but we'd never see the high scores that we do now.

  2. #122
    FORT Fogey
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    Re: *Improving the Show*

    First the judges we have are now jaded, so we need 3 new impartial judges. Next, they need to be separated so that they don't see each others' vote, and they vote their own conscience. Perhaps, they need to vote electronically.
    My sense is that there is at least an unspoken collaboration and collusion among them to try to subtly maneuver couples into the order that they prefer. For instance, a couple that they might like to see in 3rd place won't get all 10s for a dance that gets raves with no criticisms. It will get a 10-9-10. Their next dance gets the same raves, but this time it gets 9-10-10. The 30s are saved for the other 2 couples who are being maneuvered into the top 2 spots.
    Separation of the judges and electronic votes might keep them honest. Better yet, new judges!
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  3. #123
    FORT Fogey Miss Scarlet's Avatar
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    Re: *Improving the Show*

    I'd like to see 3 changes that would improve the show:
    1) Don't allow anyone who makes their living specifically from dancing or choreography.
    There are always going to be those who are more adept than others, & who's background makes learning the dances easier. That's a given. They can't keep everyone with any degree of dancing in their background out. That would eliminate way too many people. An awful lot of people in the entertainment or sports industries have some degree of dance experience, not to mention all the little girls who took dance classes. Cheerleaders would have to be OK, because of all the former High School & College cheerleaders. Plus it really is a whole different kind of moving. What I'm talking about are those who make/made their living from being dancers, or choreographers, or dance teachers.
    2) Don't allow Hip Hop in the Freestyle.
    I'm sick of all the jerking around, rolling on the floor & gymnastic leaping in the final Freestyle. This isn't what these people have been learning. I want to see an impressive & entertaining exhibition of the skills they've learned put into a dance with some of the rules let go.
    3) Let the combination Judges'/Viewers' scores determine the winner of the finale without that final Judges-only score designed to save their favorite if need be.
    If someone makes to the final 2, they obviously have done a good job. Let the results of the votes definitively determine the winner. If they want a final dance between the final 2, that's OK, but it shouldn't be scored by the Judges only.
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  4. #124
    FORT Fogey Florimel's Avatar
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    Re: *Improving the Show*

    I agree with every one of your proposals, Miss Scarlet. As far as #1 goes, I have no problem with skaters or gymnasts or boy banders or cheerleaders or even musical theater performers if they are not primarily dancers. I would say aye to a Michael Crawford, but nay to a Tommy Tune. I don't enjoy seeing a Nicole or a Mya, who was even more of a pro than Nicole.

    I would also like to see their dance order decided randomly each week, although I doubt the network would allow that.
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  5. #125
    *Until Next Season...* karalott's Avatar
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    Re: *Improving the Show*

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloomers;3909138;
    First the judges we have are now jaded, so we need 3 new impartial judges. Next, they need to be separated so that they don't see each others' vote, and they vote their own conscience. Perhaps, they need to vote electronically.
    My sense is that there is at least an unspoken collaboration and collusion among them to try to subtly maneuver couples into the order that they prefer. For instance, a couple that they might like to see in 3rd place won't get all 10s for a dance that gets raves with no criticisms. It will get a 10-9-10. Their next dance gets the same raves, but this time it gets 9-10-10. The 30s are saved for the other 2 couples who are being maneuvered into the top 2 spots.
    Separation of the judges and electronic votes might keep them honest. Better yet, new judges!
    Not that I want to lose any of my favorite pros, but I almost wouldn't mind getting a whole new set in for a season. There'd be no fan favoritism and no judges bias. I think more than before the show and judges collaborate to make a show. They probably figure no one tunes in to see people being told straight what they're doing wrong and getting scores to match. I also think when it came to people like Kate, it was almost too embarrassing for them to score her what she deserved (not that they had paddles that low). It's obvious more this season, and throughout the last few, who the favorites are that they want to stick around. Since season 6, has anyone really not know the outcome early on? Has their been any weekly shifts on the leaderboard? It's been the same select couples getting the raves and then at some point, a couple of them start getting thrown under the bus as the numbers dwindle down. I don't know about new judges, but they need to overhaul the system. And not bring in any stupid judges save or the dance off every episode just to give them the final say.

    Tony and Maks said in a recent interview that the expectations have changed as well. When they reviewed footage of season 2, the choreography was much simpler (closer to ballroom), but now, it's over the top.
    They were the two who mentioned the flash and trash comment back during season 5. Maks has stated before he'll fight to make sure the show doesn't veer away from it's original concept of promoting ballroom dance.

    How do they choose the music? I think the music choices are strange to say the least. Making them do a Paso to all the choices is odd. Certain dances you can incorporate mainstream music, but a Paso needs a certain type to not look like a production.

    I think that the show needs to stop changing what they are, and work on changing the things that are broken. Adding a dance off is ridiculous. Everyone knows who the best dancers are when they are not side by side. Showing them together in that mess is dumb. I think if they are going to keep the current judges, than expand the show to include other areas of dance. Carrie amd BrimpIt is not Ballroom dancing with the stars so why not include some of the types that are on SYTYCD. I also think that they should incorporate the pros not dancing to do the choreography. Why not have a rotation and have one season they dance, and one they choreograph?
    How is used to be was, the pros would put together a list of 100 or so songs tha they wanted to use and the show would have to get permission (usually their song lists would get cut in half because of recording fees). They don't specify or ask for a specific dance for a song, so basically the show just picks songs and assigns them to the dances. I had heard that the pros often get a handful of songs and can choose the one they want from that selection, but I think this process has been modified over time. I do believe, though, that it still goes back to the pros selecting the music pre-season. Edyta said she quit making requests because other couples always got the songs she wanted.

    The last thing I want to see this show do is to become anymore like SYTYCD or any other dance show. I think it was fine the way it is, and while I can understand little fixes and ideas thrown in here and there to keep it fresh, I think it's gotten too far away from what it started off being. I don't watch SYTYCD so I'm not sure what their routines are like, or if there's a lot of gimmicks and flashy routines. I also don't know if the pros would go for someone choreographing their routines. I'd also suggest, if they have team/group/marathon dances, stop making them so obvious as to who will win and giving the automatic front runner an easier time to shine. I liked what they did in season 3: Emmitt/Cheryl and Mario/Karina danced an individual samba to the same song. So almost the same concept as a group routine but without having the other teams to be compared to or dance around.

    ETA: Miss Scarlet, I agree with your points completely, especially #3.
    Last edited by karalott; 05-20-2010 at 08:48 PM.

  6. #126
    FORT Fanatic CharmOffensive's Avatar
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    Re: *Improving the Show*

    If they must have a hostess, Kate Gosselin could be better than Brooke Burke. I saw her as cohostess on Entertainment Tonight one night (Samantha Harris's new gig). She was actually better than expected. She had just the right amount of positive energy. (Melissa Rycroft has too much; Brooke Burke doesn't have enough.)

    Cohosting DWTS is such a light job, it would not be difficult for Kate to manage with her eight kids. (Brooke has four kids.) She has plenty of experience with TV interviews and could figure out the right questions to ask.

    P.S. Tom Bergeron likes Kate Gosselin.
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  7. #127
    Magical Elf MFWalkoff's Avatar
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    Re: *Improving the Show*

    Quote Originally Posted by CharmOffensive;3910714;
    If they must have a hostess, Kate Gosselin could be better than Brooke Burke. I saw her as cohostess on Entertainment Tonight one night (Samantha Harris's new gig). She was actually better than expected. She had just the right amount of positive energy. (Melissa Rycroft has too much; Brooke Burke doesn't have enough.)

    Cohosting DWTS is such a light job, it would not be difficult for Kate to manage with her eight kids. (Brooke has four kids.) She has plenty of experience with TV interviews and could figure out the right questions to ask.

    P.S. Tom Bergeron likes Kate Gosselin.
    That would never, never happen, for the same reason that Melissa didn't get the job: for every fan she has, there are at least one or two people who don't like her.

    I'd almost be interested to see this ET appearance, because I'd like to see where Kate learned to give off positive energy. I've never seen it happen yet.
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  8. #128
    Lux et Veritas chrisg's Avatar
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    Re: *Improving the Show*

    Quote Originally Posted by MFWalkoff;3910735;
    That would never, never happen, for the same reason that Melissa didn't get the job: for every fan she has, there are at least one or two people who don't like her.

    I'd almost be interested to see this ET appearance, because I'd like to see where Kate learned to give off positive energy. I've never seen it happen yet.
    One or two detractors for every Kate supporter? MFW, you're being modest.
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  9. #129
    FORT Fanatic CharmOffensive's Avatar
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    Re: *Improving the Show*

    One of my pet peeves of DWTS is the entrance of the stars on the stairs. It's really not the most flattering possible entrance. Fluid motion with no jerking on each step would be better. Since it's something of a evening fashion statement with the unveiling of new evening dresses every week, they could switch the stairs to a catwalk.
    "A lady's imagination is very rapid; it jumps from admiration to love, from love to matrimony in a moment." -- Jane Austen

  10. #130
    *Until Next Season...* karalott's Avatar
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    Re: *Improving the Show*

    Final verdict on season 10: it ranks in the middle. I can't really say the ratings reflect it's been the best season/cast ever, as the ratings are where they usually are (with the exception of the first few weeks).

    What went right: cutting the couples way down. 12 should be the maximum, but 11 is ideal. I also like that no novelty dances like the two step or lambada were introduced. I did miss the mambo and salsa and wouldn't mind seeing the rumba and cha cha replaced by those two. I think getting a mostly well known cast that actually had potential, ringers aside, instead of 7 2 left footed D-listers thrown in, was good. I think the dances every week were evenly matched for the most part, but I don't get why they did 3 dances week 2 (that was week 2-quick step, jive, and regular waltz, right?) I mean, I think it was for Buzz's benefit, but that was odd. Because of the high ratings, and lots of media attention with less train wrecks, I'm hoping maybe some other well known celebs might decide to sign on.

    What I'd like to see fixed: it can't be said enough, but the judges need to be less bias, more consistant, and more by the book. And CA really needs to drop her whole lift obsession. It's not funny or cute and never has been. I was confused by her calling that last "lift" out by Derek/Nicole; I thought the dance was done and he was carrying her over to the judges table. Not part of the dance, but is it their fault the band was still going? I think the finals should be either a judges/contestant re-do choice, along with their encore dance. The freestyle round didn't disappoint like the last few seasons, but I really wouldn't miss it (and I know it's not going anywhere). Less is better, so I think doing the harder dance routines early on when they have more time to rehearse might make for better dancing, along with not having them learn so many at once. I think 4 is a bit overkill for the finale, even though one dance is their repeat, but it beats last season, with all the team/relay/megamix/marathon/group dances. The pros need to be rotated around and all need their share of duds and ringers (and a season off).

    And since it also can't be said enough-let's make next season less predictable.

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