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Thread: Gilles Marini & Cheryl Burke - Season 8

  1. #581
    FORT Fogey girlsmom's Avatar
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    Re: Gilles Marini & Cheryl Burke - Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacheater;3414399;
    A 9-8-9 score on Monday represents a remarkable result from a very demanding dance for Gilles. Three specific dance movements put specific strain on the shoulder separation, and unless he received a Xilocaine injection prior to dancing, I don't know how he did it. I have never danced with an injury that painful, and would never allow a student of mine to do so. One must applaud his courage and determination while wondering if this experience will have been worth it in the end.

    The first evidence of the affect of the injury is at the 19.6 second point following music start. When Gilles pulls Cheryl through his legs, it is clear in slow motion that he is pulling her predominately with his left hand while his right is having trouble compensating for the fact the Cheryl is not centered behind him (she is right of center from the camera perspective). This would be an unplanned strain possibly not experienced in practice. This is not an error because in real-time speed, the judges would not have seen it from their vantage point.

    The second occurs at the 26 second point in a series of three right arm extensions. With a separated shoulder, it is possible to begin the arm extension and generate speed to the rhythm of the music without pain, but the difficulty is in stopping the movement with the arm extended above the shoulder. This must create a substantial moment of pain at the very point where the extension must be stopped to return the arm to its beginning position to execute the movement again and again, all the while attempting to focus on footwork.

    The final example is at @ 56 seconds when Gilles extends his right arm fully overhead while laying back, reaching to touch the floor. Here his solid core likely saves him with not much of his weight actually resting on his hand, but the act of will to place himself in that position had to be both painful and extraordinary to achieve the result. I'm not sure if this was a brilliant addition on Cheryl's part or monumental risk-taking.

    As an aside, I saw a small flaw in Chery's performance. It occurs at the worst possible moment, in the first 15 seconds when she is dancing alone, stage right -- a left/right consecutive step kick executed without returning her hips to the centered core in the middle of the crossover. The resulting affect is to make the dance look a little frenetic at the beginning, and may have initiated the judge's false impression (setting the tone) that the entire dance was a bit too rushed. I don't think it was, it just appeared that way.

    In the rest of the routine, Cheryl is perfectly balanced, as always, and clearly anticipating every fast step. She is mentally and physically in place before the next step. Gilles, other then the mistake in footwork that Len notes and I did not see in 5 slow motion replays, performs a technically excellent routine. He seems rushed only in comparison with Cheryl because he is always exactly on step while she anticipates each one. The difference is very, very subtle, and I sure Cheryl saw it immediately when she reviewed the performance video.

    It is clear to me that Gilles is not healing and I think this will cause him difficulty in the weeks ahead. If Kim's stage presence and confidence continues to grow, she may have fewer discernible flaws at the end, from the judge's perspective.

    (The above is a dispassionate observation. My "favorite" will be whoever I view the pair executing the best dance in their final competitive performance. I'm not a fan of anyone; I'm just a ballroom dancer. )
    Wow Peacheater! Thanks for the technical review. I, as a non-dancer, absolutely felt that Gilles did a GREAT job and didn't understand the criticism. Note to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but the consistently winning celebs always get knocked down peg at about this point in the season. I'm not sure that it's to even the field, but rather to give them incentive to do their best. Also, to compel their supporters to VOTE. I felt their jive was definitely superior to the Jive content in the much praised Lil Kim Jive.

  2. #582
    FORT Fogey girlsmom's Avatar
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    Re: Gilles Marini & Cheryl Burke - Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by ironcat;3414461;
    I think this is the crux of the matter, our opinions of who is the best is based on different criteria for each of us. Although I came into the show liking Melissa, I can honestly say I would not continue to support her staying on the show if she had turned out to dance like Denise, and I suspect I am not alone in that sentiment. As for Gilles, since we have created this "to the death" rivalry between them, I am trying very hard to remain objective when I watch him, since it is obvious to me that he has talent, and I think it would be my loss if I allowed my preference for Melissa to impinge on my ablility to enjoy Gilles' dancing. I honestly think all four at the top are very good, and since so far, they have only performed half of the dances, feel it is too early to say who is deserving of the title "best dancer".
    I have come to the firm conclusion that not all voters vote for whom they think is the best DANCER. This was de-bunked in about the 3rd season for me. People are free to utilize ANY criteria, it's simply who do they want to see on their screen, particularly if it's sometime they perceive as needing the votes. I feel that at the end people are probably voting more specifically for the best dancer, this after they've kept the celebs they like around for a time. There simply is NO way that I can be convinced that Steve-Os voters thought that he was the best dancer. If someone wishes to save a person, whom they think is in danger, they would likely use ALL their votes to support that person. Later on I feel most voters feel their favorite celebs has gotten their fair shot and vote for the best dancer. The final two are always decent dancers imo, but it can take until the F4 to get rid of the sub-standard, but well liked celebs.
    Now that Steve-O is gone it will be interesting to see who goes next: Chuck, LT or sweet Ty.

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    Re: Gilles Marini & Cheryl Burke - Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by girlsmom;3414682;
    I have come to the firm conclusion that not all voters vote for whom they think is the best DANCER. This was de-bunked in about the 3rd season for me. People are free to utilize ANY criteria, it's simply who do they want to see on their screen, particularly if it's sometime they perceive as needing the votes. I feel that at the end people are probably voting more specifically for the best dancer, this after they've kept the celebs they like around for a time. There simply is NO way that I can be convinced that Steve-Os voters thought that he was the best dancer. If someone wishes to save a person, whom they think is in danger, they would likely use ALL their votes to support that person. Later on I feel most voters feel their favorite celebs has gotten their fair shot and vote for the best dancer. The final two are always decent dancers imo, but it can take until the F4 to get rid of the sub-standard, but well liked celebs.
    Now that Steve-O is gone it will be interesting to see who goes next: Chuck, LT or sweet Ty.
    Oh, ITA that anyone who voted for Steve-O, Ty, LT or Chuck sincerely believes in their heart of hearts that they are not superior dancers to the top four. Did they enjoy their dances more? Maybe, or maybe they just like them more. But in addition, even when it gets down to voting for the best dancer, I think we each determine this by using our own criteria, whether it be technique, excitement value, difficulty of routine, and of course our personal opinions/prejudices about the celebs do influence our perception of their ability, whether we are aware of it or not.

    I'm sure out of Gilles, Melissa, Shawn, and Kim, there are fans that could make a case for each of the four being the "best dancer" right now. Who is right and who is wrong?

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    FORT Fogey girlsmom's Avatar
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    Re: Gilles Marini & Cheryl Burke - Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by ironcat;3414703;
    Oh, ITA that anyone who voted for Steve-O, Ty, LT or Chuck sincerely believes in their heart of hearts that they are not superior dancers to the top four. Did they enjoy their dances more? Maybe, or maybe they just like them more. But in addition, even when it gets down to voting for the best dancer, I think we each determine this by using our own criteria, whether it be technique, excitement value, difficulty of routine, and of course our personal opinions/prejudices about the celebs do influence our perception of their ability, whether we are aware of it or not.

    I'm sure out of Gilles, Melissa, Shawn, and Kim, there are fans that could make a case for each of the four being the "best dancer" right now. Who is right and who is wrong?

    Stop me if I'm wrong, but imo, people believe that Ty, LT and Chuck are clearly the worst dancers. My belief is that people eventually stop voting for the not so good dancers and in the last couple of rounds vote for whomever they believe to be the BEST. I also don't believe that most would vote OFF a great dancer, but they're not asked to vote OFF someone, just to vote to keep.

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    FORT Fogey ironcat's Avatar
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    Re: Gilles Marini & Cheryl Burke - Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by girlsmom;3414720;
    Stop me if I'm wrong, but imo, people believe that Ty, LT and Chuck are clearly the worst dancers. My belief is that people eventually stop voting for the not so good dancers and in the last couple of rounds vote for whomever they believe to be the BEST. I also don't believe that most would vote OFF a great dancer, but they're not asked to vote OFF someone, just to vote to keep.
    Maybe I phrased things badly in my earlier post, but we are in total agreement. I think and hope you are right that people wouldn't choose to vote off a great dancer, if given that option, although I think this board proves that "great" is in the eye of the beholder.

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    FORT Fogey girlsmom's Avatar
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    Re: Gilles Marini & Cheryl Burke - Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by ironcat;3414731;
    Maybe I phrased things badly in my earlier post, but we are in total agreement. I think and hope you are right that people wouldn't choose to vote off a great dancer, if given that option, although I think this board proves that "great" is in the eye of the beholder.
    Yes, we do agree, BUT the problem is that at this stage voters vote to KEEP people, so . . .say we get six votes, MOST people are not going to equally distribute those votes among the most deserving, they will vote for only a couple of people. . .thus they are not actually voting OFF people, just voting to keep some. See what I mean. All voters do NOT get 1 vote to vote people off, they just get a certain number of votes to use in support of their favorites. Most aren't going to spread their hypothetical six votes among six people, they'll give a majority, if not all of their votes to their favorite. Sorry that I'm not making myself clearer.
    I think that perhaps we'd get a better DANCE show if it were true that we could vote for the elimination, rather than support. Thus the non-fans of people like Steve-O would most probably have been able to offset the sympathetic voters at a much earlier time.

  7. #587
    FORT Fan Peacheater's Avatar
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    Re: Gilles Marini & Cheryl Burke - Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by girlsmom;3414669;
    Wow Peacheater! Thanks for the technical review. I, as a non-dancer, absolutely felt that Gilles did a GREAT job and didn't understand the criticism. Note to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but the consistently winning celebs always get knocked down peg at about this point in the season. I'm not sure that it's to even the field, but rather to give them incentive to do their best. Also, to compel their supporters to VOTE. I felt their jive was definitely superior to the Jive content in the much praised Lil Kim Jive.
    I was only writing about the performance of Gilles and Cheryl on Monday night. I'll leave the speculation and finger pointing to others. I did agree this week with the judge's overall ranking of all the dancers, though. I unually find myself most closely in agreement with Len's comments, although Carrie Anne often notes things I must look for in slow motion video to discover. She has a quick eye. Bruno's comments are 90 % theatre and 10 % substance, in my opinion, but his scores are consistent.

    If the standards of measurement were simply the best ballroom dance pair, there really would only be three contenders in my view: Lil Kim, Gilles and Melissa, but I recognize that my perspective is different than 99 % of people who comment here.

  8. #588
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    Re: Gilles Marini & Cheryl Burke - Season 8

    I agree that Gilles and Cheryl's jive was superior to Lil Kim and Derek. I saw Kim make a lot of mistakes in her timing and don't understand the praise. The jive is supposed to be fast - very fast so I don't understand the criticism of Gilles. I thlnk the judges think they should try to even the field at the top by giving the second placers better scores and the first placers lower scores to balance it better and to encourage all of them to strive to do better. Gilles alread gives it 110% so to try harder would be somewhat redundant for him. He is a wonderful dancer. I enjoy every performance.

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    Re: Gilles Marini & Cheryl Burke - Season 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacheater;3414743;
    I was only writing about the performance of Gilles and Cheryl on Monday night. I'll leave the speculation and finger pointing to others. I did agree this week with the judge's overall ranking of all the dancers, though. I unually find myself most closely in agreement with Len's comments, although Carrie Anne often notes things I must look for in slow motion video to discover. She has a quick eye. Bruno's comments are 90 % theatre and 10 % substance, in my opinion, but his scores are consistent.

    If the standards of measurement were simply the best ballroom dance pair, there really would only be three contenders in my view: Lil Kim, Gilles and Melissa, but I recognize that my perspective is different than 99 % of people who comment here.
    Yep, I understand your perspective. I'm struggling to remember who else would be considered a contender. I would imagine that you'd get pretty much of a consensus that Gilles and Melissa are the two best. I tend to agree with you that Lil Kim might be thought to be inferior to Shawn. I am not one of those people though. Lil Kim has emerged, imo, to be number 3 and who knows how much better she'll get. I just think that Shawn is unlikely to experience a lot of growth in her dance performances. Gymnastics is too different from ballroom and latin dancing and she's too young and embarassed to be able to project the romance and sexiness required.
    Sorry to be OT here, but the gymnastics Jive pretty much demonstrated that she needed to rely on her gymnastics prowess vs. actually performing the Jive.

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    FORT Fan TonyDovolaniFan's Avatar
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    Re: Gilles Marini & Cheryl Burke - Season 8

    I also agree that Gilles' jive was better than Lil' Kim's. Kim's dance was entertaining, but it wasn't really a jive. How could it get two 10's when it wasn't really a jive (and had mistakes, as some of you pointed out)?

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