5/24 Finals Part 2 Discussion Thread **Spoilers**

[Tilden]

Kirstie and Maks you were such a joy. From day one. But you were up against forces outside of your control. How wonderful it would have been to see you both hold up that mirror ball trophy. How right it would have been to see that. Mark and Chelsea- you both put so much creativity into this and you made me care about this show. You made me want to watch for all the right reasons. I think it's great you won't compromise or change or give into the hatred and the negative comments based not on your talent but how you are perceived. I loved what you brought to the dance floor and appreciate your willingness to push the boundaries-art forms cannot stay static or they will die. Taking risks and thinking outside of the box are admirable things- I don't always agree with your choices, but I appreciate the effort.

The waltz and VW have been around and surviving quite nicely since the late 1700s. People have managed to do inventive, creative versions of them while still maintaining the basic character of the dance. DWTS couples have even managed to do that. The waltz and VW are not static or dying. Even when danced well within the rules of the form, they can look quite different when danced by different couples to different music. Personally, I'd take the waltz Petra/Dmitry did over the wizard waltz, because it was a waltz. Not a little bit of a waltz and a lot of other things, including the worm, which is hardly within the general character of the dance.

And if M/C, particularly Mark, were perceived negatively, perhaps it's because there was whining over scores most couples would have been more than happy with, swearing, flipping the bird, and challenging Len's knowledge of ballroom dance, when he's the one judge who knows the most about the rules of ballroom dance. Kendra wasn't perceived any better for her TMI remarks or talking back to the judges--even Louis, her own partner, called her out for her remarks to CA. Nor was Bruno for making a rude, sexist remark to Karina. When you behave badly, you're perceived poorly. It's as simple as that.


As for creativity, just how many hip hop freestyles have we seen from Mark now? Not exactly pushing many boundaries there. He's also certain to break out the "nerdy guy in glasses" look for at least one program per season. Beyond that, if he wants to be the big rebel and make every dance as close to a freestyle as he can manage, then he's going to have to accept the fact that he and his partner may suffer for it on a show where the stars are supposed to be learning and performing ballroom dances--and his partners are going to have to insist that he not do that if he can't rein himself in if they're concerned about their scores. Chelsea tried to stand up to him, but I just don't think she's a strong enough personality to insist on it. Or maybe she just thought it didn't matter. I have no idea what she might have been thinking.

[Kip]

I'm not too concerned with which stars are on. I just want the best dancer to win. It's too bad that that didn't happen this time. Chelsea was head and shoulders above the other two, but I guess there was too much hate for her partner.

I haven't watched DWTS for several seasons, so I don't get why everyone hates Mark ... I didn't see all the things people on here were seeing, which points to a whole lot of confirmation bias as far as I'm concerned.

Oh well.

I don't think Chelsea was the best dancer. She's good, but she has her flaws - as do Hines and Kirstie. Of the three freestyles last night, I thought Chelsea's/Mark's dance had the most flaws, and Hines the least.

I don't always vote for the best dancer. Sometimes the best dancer technically isn't as much fun to watch as another celebrity. If there's someone who started the competition with a whole lot of dance experience, I'm more likely to vote instead for the celebrity who came in with no experience and became really good.

The show exhorts us to vote for the person we want to win (they don't say vote for the best dancer).

I liked this season more than most because the celebrities were so evenly matched - but that also made it harder to see some of the celebrities go.

[redsox girl]

Mark was undeserving and for once he was not rewarded!

Hines could have tripped, dropped his partner and forgotten all his steps and he still would have received a pile of votes in order to keep Mark from winning. Read last weeks boards, there's proof enough as people promised to vote for Hines this week no matter what. So, how can anyone say he deserved to win? Based on his dancing? I don't know. Based on hating Mark? Maybe. More than likely a combination of both. This entire thread should be called "I HATE MARK" rather than DWTS.

The hatred for Mark is so personal, as well. Post after post calling him names. So, yes, I'm going to say that Hines win was not necessarily deserved and that's a shame for Hines, as well. It's like he became a pawn in this whole "We cannot let Mark win" line of thinking. Maybe Kirstie suffered as a result of this mindset, too.

[Tilden]

Oh, and I have to say this out loud: for the love of all that is good.......please, please, please replace the singers on this show. Whoever sang the song Romeo and Chelsie danced to (with the mini children's choir) absolutely murdered it. My ears are still bleeding!

I don't especially like the song Romeo and Chelsie danced to in the first place, though I totally understand why they picked it, but what that singer did to it...dear God in heaven, that was dreadful. It's a fairly easy, straightforward song, but no, she had to try and make it "her own," by screwing around with the melody and making it sound even worse. I swear at one point it sounded as if she were gargling. Plus, it didn't sound like they miked the children's choir at all, so what was the point of having them there?

One thing I really liked this season was the classical music night, because either there were no vocalists or the vocalists were much better. I really hope they keep that.

Oh, and one other thing about the DWTS singers: for several seasons now, I've wanted to rip those ridiculous headpieces right off that one woman's head. She needs to pay less attention to what she puts on her head and more attention to the sounds she lets escape her throat.

[Jexter]

I think Mark B is a great dancer and choreographer and I don't see him or the Houghs (when they were on) receiving any special treatment.

Just my opinion.

Mark didn't lose it for me - Chelsea did. She's cute and sweet and has an amazing figure and to hear the judges say it, she's a great dancer. But....for me, she was incredibly boring to watch.

Like it or not, that's a big part of ANY performance-based competition. It's not black and white and it's not based just on technical merit. There is a performance element and Chelsea's performances didn't do anything for me.

I think the final order was the right order. Hines was technically sound AND a performer I enjoyed watching. Plus, I think he took the free-style to a whole new level. After 10 seasons, that says a lot right there.

Kirstie may not be able to do flips and lifts like Chelsea, but she is a good AND entertaining dancer. I think she brought the heart and soul and spirit that this show embodies, and I, for one, like to see that kind of stuff rewarded. I'd be bummed if she won over Hines, but I'm thrilled she came in 2nd.

Chelsea definately deserved 3rd place. She did grow and was technically sound. Just dry and dull for me to watch. Having said that, I think she is adorable and could easily be the next generation of Cameron Diaz. I'll bet this does good things for her career.
---
Side note...I missed Max's final remarks to Kirstie....something about the last 9 seasons and this one being special. Did anyone catch that?

[karalott]

I don't think Chelsea was the best dancer. She's good, but she has her flaws - as do Hines and Kirstie. Of the three freestyles last night, I thought Chelsea's/Mark's dance had the most flaws, and Hines the least.

I don't always vote for the best dancer. Sometimes the best dancer technically isn't as much fun to watch as another celebrity. If there's someone who started the competition with a whole lot of dance experience, I'm more likely to vote instead for the celebrity who came in with no experience and became really good.

The show exhorts us to vote for the person we want to win (they don't say vote for the best dancer).

I liked this season more than most because the celebrities were so evenly matched - but that also made it harder to see some of the celebrities go.

On any show, it's always vote for your favorite. Even saying voting for the best will have differing opinions, people not voting, or people still voting for their favorites. I loved Hines and everything he and Kym brought to the floor every week. They were such an absolute joy to watch. They had so much fun, no drama or tension, Hines had complete faith in Kym to come up with something, and he was usually able to pull it off. He didn't come in as a ringer, but he had potential and as usual, Kym made him shine. Everything the judges said about Hines tonight I agreed with 100% Chelsea was a good dancer, but I thought Hines was better and more memorable. I dislike Mark, but if I liked his partner enough, wouldn't not vote for her because of him. I didn't like the producer manipulation last week, but I know that was their fault. Why they thought they needed to give them a spot in the finals, I don't know, but it just made the show look worse. Hines deserved his win. Kirstie would have deserved the win. I don't think Mark deserved it based on his attitude throughout the season. I think it would do him a lot of good to take next season off. But Chelsea? She may have deserved it, but from where I'm sitting, I think Hines deserved it more. Hines only got my votes for the first time last night because Ralph and Romeo were gone. I had split my votes earlier in the season, but when DI kept showing Romeo at the bottom, I was getting worried and started just voting for him, and just for Ralph last week.

I agree about the celebrities being evenly matched. I hope the show goes back to the more basic theme next season-no theme nights (and if they do, no theme night disasters), 2 dances a week, the same dance styles. Can the team dances and I hope they don't bring the WTA. Of course next season we'll probably need it Oh, and Wendy Williams was odd tonight. I heard from an interview Karina did last week she didn't plan on doing this season, so I wonder if we'll see her back next time (especially given everything that went on this season). We might see a big shake up in pros next time.

[Tilden]

Hines could have tripped, dropped his partner and forgotten all his steps and he still would have received a pile of votes in order to keep Mark from winning. Read last weeks boards, there's proof enough as people promised to vote for Hines this week no matter what. So, how can anyone say he deserved to win? Based on his dancing? I don't know. Based on hating Mark? Maybe. More than likely a combination of both. This entire thread should be called "I HATE MARK" rather than DWTS.

The hatred for Mark is so personal, as well. Post after post calling him names. So, yes, I'm going to say that Hines win was not necessarily deserved and that's a shame for Hines, as well. It's like he became a pawn in this whole "We cannot let Mark win" line of thinking. Maybe Kirstie suffered as a result of this mindset, too.

While a lot of people post on this particular board, there are also boards where M/C were popular. On top of that, a great many voters probably don't post on boards at all and not everybody on this board who disliked Mark voted against him or even for anyone at all.

I have no idea what the vote totals were or who voted for Hines or why. But no one else does either. Anyone can say someone deserved or didn't deserve to win, but until the vote totals are revealed by the show, no one can prove anything--and I seriously doubt the show will ever make those figures public if they haven't done so yet.

As for Mark being called names, there have always been plenty of negative nicknames for reality show stars on any board where reality shows are discussed. When you're in the public eye, that's what happens--some people like you, and some people don't. On DWTS, the dancers, the pro partners, the judges, the singers, the band, Brooke...they all get criticized. About the only one I've never read much negative about is Tom Bergeron. Yes, Mark got referred to as a troll. In the past, Karina was referred to as a bitch too. It happens. The reason Karina wasn't called a bitch this season is because, well, it didn't fit this season. Her attitude/behavior improved. If Mark drops his entitled attitude and stops upstaging his partners, people may change their minds about him too. Heck, in the beginning, I didn't mind him at all. It's only in the past few seasons that he's started to bug me.

[jadewarlock]

Hines could have tripped, dropped his partner and forgotten all his steps and he still would have received a pile of votes in order to keep Mark from winning. Read last weeks boards, there's proof enough as people promised to vote for Hines this week no matter what. So, how can anyone say he deserved to win? Based on his dancing? I don't know. Based on hating Mark? Maybe. More than likely a combination of both. This entire thread should be called "I HATE MARK" rather than DWTS.

Yes, however, Kirstie was 5 points down and finished second, so most likely the case would've been that the votes would've gone to Kirstie. Chelsea and Mark from the looks of things were not going to win unless the fans voted to let them win - or the judges helped them. Even the fact that all three got a 30 tonight shows that they were going to let us vote.

Most people also thougth that Hines and Kirstie were the better dancers, and many such as I felt that Ralph or Romeo should've rounded out the final three. The 15 point WTA dance really didn't help people's opinions on Mark either - as someone mentioned, when they said in the final elimination that the bottom two - Kirstie and Ralph - were not necessarily in the bottom three, they pretty much made it clear that the "third place" person was at least second. Seeing how Kirstie came back from a 5 point deficit this week to finish second, I can say that this most likely was the case.

On my personal note - I chose to vote for my favorite dancers - Kirstie and Maks, though I did like Hines' free. I wouldn't vote for Mark and Chelsea simply because I feel being rewarded for doing a free instead of a cha-cha in a winner-take-all dance where the other person danced it correctly, and being given a spot in the final three when the producers could've taken out the WTA (it was planned, not a permanent figure, and they could've removed it regardless - it's their show), is not right for any contestant, not even Chelsea.

The hatred for Mark is so personal, as well. Post after post calling him names. So, yes, I'm going to say that Hines win was not necessarily deserved and that's a shame for Hines, as well. It's like he became a pawn in this whole "We cannot let Mark win" line of thinking. Maybe Kirstie suffered as a result of this mindset, too.

I personally didn't call him names except when I felt that he acted the way that he is stereotyped. Example, I have called him a troll when he badmouthed the judges and acted all arrogant like.

And on the converse, when you have a 5 point deficit and you have seen in recent years the judges NOT, and I repeat NOT - give everyone the same score in the final dance so the scored actually DO change, I think a lot of people thought Kirstie was not going to finish higher than third. I don't think that the "anti-Mark" mantra had as much of an effect on Kirstie as you'd assume - unfortunately Kirstie's free had a couple of rough transitions while Hines' was freer in movement.

If anything, this would be the case to argue two winners - one male and one female celebrity winner each season. Both were deserving; however, in a case where only one wins, Hines had the better nights than Kirstie competitively. That said, I hope that I have that stamina that Kirstie has at 60 when I turn that age.

[Tilden]

I agree about the celebrities being evenly matched. I hope the show goes back to the more basic theme next season-no theme nights (and if they do, no theme night disasters), 2 dances a week, the same dance styles. Can the team dances and I hope they don't bring the WTA. Of course next season we'll probably need it Oh, and Wendy Williams was odd tonight. I heard from an interview Karina did last week she didn't plan on doing this season, so I wonder if we'll see her back next time (especially given everything that went on this season). We might see a big shake up in pros next time.[/QUOTE]


I don't especially like the team dances either, but if they want some kind of group number, they could go back to the early seasons and just do an unscored group number where everyone danced together according to some kind of theme. That was okay to watch, and the dancers had fun with it, because they knew it wasn't going to have any effect on who went home.

I definitely preferred no more than two styles of dance per night. I guess they thought that was boring, but it helped clarify who was good and who wasn't early on. In addition, I liked it better when anyone who got a ballroom one week got a Latin the next. Alternating like that didn't give anyone an unfair advantage. I also think the jive should be kept for later in the season for everyone. Or they could lose it for a season and replace it with the lindy hop, which the celebrities seemed to handle better. I wouldn't mind the rumba being given a rest either, since we rarely see a good one.

Any WTA dance needs to be dropped entirely. But they should keep the classical night--better music, better singers.

[MsDiva2007]

Well, all you people who voted for Hines to keep Mark from winning got what you wanted.
Totally undeserving and unworthy of a win. Totally.

Actually Hines worked hard for that Ugly mirror ball and the whole time he smiled, showed class and was humble. Mark and Chelsea on the other hand not so much.

As I have been told before its not about the dance. It's about seeing the "celebrity" show growth and learn to dance. Hines & Kirstie both succeeded at that.

I can say nice things about Hines and I hate the Steelers with my whole heart,lol.