Paul is "straight"?

[flotsette]

In women, a gal could be straight, but have had sexual experiences with women (during college, or whatever). It's considered 'open' and 'sexually adventurous'. A straight guy does that, and it becomes this whole issue of gay/straight. I was also interested in hearing the gay mates' reaction to Michael's bisexual (albeit false) coming-out.... "what kind of gay man are you?"

Absolutely. I was trying to get at this same point a while back when I said that there's a bigger social hurdle a man must get over to have a homosexual experience. In other words, I think a man has to be "gayer" (fall more towards the gay side of the scale than the straight side) to get over that hurdle. I suspect once you're over, it's a bit hard to go back, too.

Of course this is all speculation, as I'm a woman. But I am bisexual, and I thought the Michael Incident was a classic example of bi-phobia in the gay community (which is sometimes worse than in the straight community!) I knew I was bisexual, but wouldn't call myself by that term for over 10 years -- even though I was an out "lesbian" at 15!! And back in 1984, that was fairly revolutionary. Let me tell you, I did NOT have an easy time at school. So the fact that I was out at 15, but wouldn't call myself bi until 27 or so, should tell you something....

Everybody wants you to "get off the fence" or "pick a team." Or worse yet, they assume that you want to date multiple people or have threesomes in bed! Ridiculous!

Pure speculation: Michael may have actually had 2 sexual experiences with men, as he said. I think his bisexual "orientation" would have gone over better if he'd said it was more like 20. But I was sitting there thinking, well, where do you want him to go? A straight dating show? There's no bisexual dating shows yet...

This is exactly why I don't like going to gay bars much. People often react like that and don't want to date you. Not to mention you're limiting yourself to one gender. Unfortunately, I'm unlikely to meet lesbian or bisexual women anyplace else. See the catch-22 us bis are in?

You also saw James' reaction - not positive. I re-watched the first episode and noticed that James made a comment to Andra about Matt having been in love with women in the past and he said "so he's one of THOSE."

I also sincerely doubt they would have allowed anybody identifying as bi on the show. Again, people want to see you in black and white; one way or the other. So much for strides....

[off soapbox]
sorry for the rant

[foody]

Absolutely. I was trying to get at this same point a while back when I said that there's a bigger social hurdle a man must get over to have a homosexual experience. In other words, I think a man has to be "gayer" (fall more towards the gay side of the scale than the straight side) to get over that hurdle. I suspect once you're over, it's a bit hard to go back, too.

Of course this is all speculation, as I'm a woman. But I am bisexual, and I thought the Michael Incident was a classic example of bi-phobia in the gay community (which is sometimes worse than in the straight community!) ...

thanks for your post flotsette! It's interesting to hear about the gay/bi/straight boundaries. Does it bother people that they feel bisexuals are trying to have their cake and eat it too? Once you say sexuality is one's own, and really impossible for others to judge or direct, it seems like you can't say one sexuality is ok and not another.... bad behavior is bad behavior in any relationship, but sexuality itself really can't be... can it?

Also, I was wondering if you are ever bothered by straight women who 'experiment' with one or two lesbian affairs, just to say 'they did it' as a thing to wear like a badge, and tell people about... just wondering, as a college classmate was going on and on about this at a recent reunion and it bothered me (though I say sexuality shouldn't be judged at any level...). Or maybe I wasn't judging her sexuality -- just her personality!!

[sethy11]

I am going to try to be as diplomatic as I can in this reply, becasue this whole thread seriously upsets me.

Being "gay" is not a choice one makes like "what cereal to eat in the morning" , "what chlothes do I want to wear to work/school today" etc.

Maybe I am putting to much attention on a discussion of "sexual exploration" versus "one's sexuality". But people do not just wake up one morning and say "I'm gay." You either are or you aren't.

Believe me if there was a "choice" or a "piill" or a "button" one could push I would use it to save the lives of the young gay people I deal with on a daily basis .

Please look at the rate of suicide among young gay people and understand that one of the leading causes is "their parents, peers, people they trust most telling them it "is a stage you are going through", or "if you wanted too, you could choose not to be" and such is just not the case.

Seth

[MrsDarling]

IPlease look at the rate of suicide among young gay people and understand that one of the leading causes is "their parents, peers, people they trust most telling them it "is a stage you are going through", or "if you wanted too, you could choose not to be" and such is just not the case.
Seth

Thank you for being there for those young men and women! They are all our future.

A friend once told me when he went to high schools to talk about
being gay he'd get "Thank you" notes in which students would tell
him that he'd given them hope that they could have happy, successful
lives.

It is simply respectful to trust people to tell you how they understand themselves, in sexual orientation as in all other things.

[Kermit]

I am going to try to be as diplomatic as I can in this reply, becasue this whole thread seriously upsets me.

Seth

You point that sexual orientation is innate (and not chosen) is well taken. I wasn't sure, though, if whether you were also suggesting that you are either gay or your not and, therefore, there are no true bi-sexuals only "sexual adventurers".

[alixtheweaver]

Thank you for being there for those young men and women! They are all our future.

A friend once told me when he went to high schools to talk about
being gay he'd get "Thank you" notes in which students would tell
him that he'd given them hope that they could have happy, successful
lives.

It is simply respectful to trust people to tell you how they understand themselves, in sexual orientation as in all other things.

At least you friend can go to high schools and talk about being gay. When I was in high school, such topics were not discussed (at least not in public). To this day, I am sure that one of my classmates (in a class of 90) was a gay guy. No proof, but as I grew older, I became suspious. I don't have any questions about the girls in the class.

[flotsette]

Does it bother people that they feel bisexuals are trying to have their cake and eat it too? ...[snip]

Also, I was wondering if you are ever bothered by straight women who 'experiment' with one or two lesbian affairs, just to say 'they did it' as a thing to wear like a badge, and tell people about... just wondering, as a college classmate was going on and on about this at a recent reunion and it bothered me (though I say sexuality shouldn't be judged at any level...). Or maybe I wasn't judging her sexuality -- just her personality!!

Thanks for your kind reply, foody. In regard to your first question, I guess what bothers me is people wanting to impose their view on me. Why do people want bisexuals to "pick a team?" It's not a war or a game -- the gays vs. the straights!

If I know I'm bisexual, who else's business is it to judge that orientation as being invalid? When gays have disdain for bisexuals, it's exactly like straights looking down on gays. Almost worse, because gay people should know how it feels and try and extend tolerance.

Mind you, the biphobia has gotten a LOT better during my lifetime. For instance our pride parade is now designated gay/lesbian/bi/trans. So at least people are trying. That doesn't mean that attitudes change fast. Just because we have laws against racial discrimination, doesn't mean that there isn't racial discrimination out there. Same with the name of the pride parade. But it's a big step.

In regard to your second question - Well, who am I to judge another's orientation after what I just said. I think perhaps it just shows that while most people fall towards one end of the scale or the other, that some people have a *capacity* to respond sexually to either gender, however slight. Although they may PREFER one over the other. The *preference* is normally how they declare their orientation. Does that make sense?

But as far as doing *anything* just so you can brag about it, that's simply lacking in class! I do know the personality type you're talking about, for sure. And yes, those type of people are annoying.

Seth said: "Being "gay" is not a choice one makes like "what cereal to eat in the morning" , "what chlothes do I want to wear to work/school today" etc."

Seth, I'm not sure if anything I said was what you were reacting to, but I don't remember anyone saying being gay was a choice you make like breakfast cereal. I was born a bisexual; I didn't just decide to become this way. So I definitely agree with you on that point.

Seth, I also understand what you are saying about teens. I was out in junior high and high school (as a lesbian because I felt I had to "pick a side") between the years of 1983 -1986. There was no such thing as a gay teen support group at that time. I was harassed, threatened, and assaulted. People hung up signs in the halls at my school saying it was "National Slap A Dyke Week." I was written about in the local newspaper, saying that me and my two friends were "just trying to get attention." My dad thought I would "grow out of it." And I had many, many thoughts of suicide, and one (admittedly lame) attempt at it.

I'm not sure exactly what was said that has upset you so. Maybe you could be more specific.

I will tell you one thing that upsets me: When people say "oh, so-and-so is actually gay, and just doesn't know it yet." (It was said a number of times in this forum, and in fact, was the original subject of this thread.) I strongly support every individual's right to self-identify. I guess the reason I posted what I did is to offer another perspective. Yes, Paul might actually have some capacity to respond sexually to men. But only HE gets to decide how he identifies.

[foody]

Thanks for your kind reply, foody. In regard to your first question, I guess what bothers me is people wanting to impose their view on me. Why do people want bisexuals to "pick a team?" It's not a war or a game -- the gays vs. the straights!.... In regard to your second question - Well, who am I to judge another's orientation after what I just said. ....I will tell you one thing that upsets me: When people say "oh, so-and-so is actually gay, and just doesn't know it yet." (It was said a number of times in this forum, and in fact, was the original subject of this thread.) I strongly support every individual's right to self-identify. I guess the reason I posted what I did is to offer another perspective. Yes, Paul might actually have some capacity to respond sexually to men. But only HE gets to decide how he identifies.

thanks for taking the time on your last response, flotsette. bisexuality sort of reminds me of being mixed-race (which I am) -- you live your life finding it difficult to make either side 'get' you; there is a sense of trying to please everyone and noone at the same time. Bottom line, as we've heard time and again on this forum and BMB's show, it boils down to being able to have the freedom from attack and censure, and the freedom to pursue happiness, in life and love. It's difficult enough as it is just living!

[MrsDarling]

thanks for taking the time on your last response, flotsette. bisexuality sort of reminds me of being mixed-race (which I am) -- you live your life finding it difficult to make either side 'get' you; there is a sense of trying to please everyone and noone at the same time. Bottom line, as we've heard time and again on this forum and BMB's show, it boils down to being able to have the freedom from attack and censure, and the freedom to pursue happiness, in life and love. It's difficult enough as it is just living!

Amen! Maybe that should be the epilogue to BMB.

[Roddick_Rulez]

Of course it's okay I don't make stuff and not give it away lol.



Screw Michael he should've taken Paul that night. Just look at that adorable face.

Wow...Paul looks hot in that picture! Geez...and James picked Michael over Paul cuz he was ultimately a lil more attractive?? Me don't think so...hehe