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Thread: Anyone not like the Twilight series?

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    Re: Anyone not like the Twilight series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandora Box;3422966;
    True, but the entire concept of the vampire originated from folklore tales and legends from mainly Eastern Europe where the dead would rise to feed on the blood of the living. There were reports of such creatures roaming the countryside. Of course they aren't real but many had a strong belief in them. While there's no single definitive description of them, the basics stayed the same. Then there's the image of the suave, seductive Byron-esque figure from Dracula and Carmilla (lesbian vampires! It's actually an amazing book, I recommend it) and Anne Rice's books. Even today there are legends of vampires around the world (can you tell that I did my research? Self confessed geek here ) The characteristics can change but not to the point where you can't call it a vampire. Fictional or not, there is a canon and nerds like me care about it. I think I might be repeating myself here so I'll get off my soapbox.

    I'm all for non PC books for kids (well, within reason obviously - having said that I was reading Hannibal Lecter ay 13 and I'm perfectly sane...) but Twilight is an odd box. It has a ridiculously abusive relationship at the centre of it that's supposed to be the perfect romance (a guy who could kill you creeping into your room at night while you sleep, how sweet) and then the paedophilia in the later books which is unforgiveable. Yet it's all a big 'Just say no' message as well - no sex until you're married or you'll die! (slight exaggeration but not without reason) I hope that the kids who read these books go on to read other great pieces of literature and develop a love for reading the same way that I did after reading Harry Potter, but with the sheer bat-mad insane antics that the Twi-hards have reportedly been caught up in, I do have fears.
    The concept of vampires actually originated in Ancient Egypt, and was revived later in Eastern Europe. Curiously, almost every ancient culture had a legend of blood drinkers, even the Chinese
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    Re: Anyone not like the Twilight series?

    I guess I'm fighting a losing battle here but regarding the abusive relationship comment I made:

    If a guy constantly tells you what to do, that's abuse. Edward does this and also makes Bella do things she doesn't want to do, e.g. go to prom, have a birthday party (they may not seem like big deals but she's still being forced against her will to do something she doesn't want to.) If a guy threatens suicide then that's abusive, as well as bloody stupid. Edward does this. If a guy openly manipulates you in an effort to prevent you from seeing friends and/or family, that is abusive. Edward removes the engine from Bella's car so she won't go and see Jacob. He also has Alice follow her to make sure she doesn't sneak off. He continually does stuff and makes decisions that go against Bella's wishes, like when he leaves in New Moon, he takes all the stuff that reminds her of him. She becomes isolated from her family and friends by being with Edward and his family. Then there's Breaking Dawn and that sex scene.

    After they get married (something Bella didn't want to do, remember), they do the act. But during their first time, Bella passes out and he keeps going. When she wakes up in the morning, she is covered in bruises she doesn't remember getting. Sure, Edward is ashamed but her first thought afterwards is how to cover them up so as not to upset him! Please tell me I'm not the only one who has a problem with this. If you look on Facebook there are pieces of flair that say "I'd let Edward Cullen bruise me." No, no no! That's not even the worst behaviour I've heard of from fans. There have been reports of violence from fans, including the girls who clawed at their necks until they bled when they met Robert Pattinson and said "We did this for you." I'm a Harry Potter fan and I've seen some crazy things in the fandom but I've never seen self mutilation in the name of a book.

    Robert Pattinson's blood scare

    I am all for young 'uns reading. I wholeheartedly support it. I also think that Twilight has a lot of potential to be an interesting story. But it's weighed down by bad writing and bad messages. If I had read Twilight when I was 14 or 15 I would have adored it and been one of those excitable fans. Young teens are already highly suspectable to the things around them without things like Twilight. I wish I could say we're all smart enough to take the book at face value and just enjoy it as a light trashy read but I know that's not true. I just don't think it's a good idea to have a story with a relationship so obviously messed up dressed up as true love. Just like Romeo and Juliet isn't a romance, neither is Twilight.

    And that concludes Pandora's rant for the day. If you'd like me to shut up, just say so.

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    Re: Anyone not like the Twilight series?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJane;3424362;
    Anyway, I've said before that if one doesn't enjoy the series, that's certainly a matter of personal taste and Lord knows there have been many very popular bestsellers that I've hated. But I really have to question such extreme charges about the story when terms like "abusive relationship" and "pedophilia" are bandied about. To me, those are serious subjects and though I would never presume to speak for the author, I can't believe that she intended her characters to be portrayed as such. It's kind of like complaining that Cinderella was so weak-willed that she couldn't get up the gumption to leave the house without a fairy godmother's assistance, or that Snow White wasn't much good for anything except housecleaning and waiting around for a rich man to ask her to marry him. You could look at it that way or you could just take those stories for what they are - fairy tales with the promise of true love, which every young person dreams about at some point in their lives. Everyone reads for different reasons, but I think most really avid readers read for pure escapism, at least some of the time. It's good to have a little of that along with the heavier literature, I think.
    Well, actually I'm not crazy about those messages either! And not even good messages for boys in a lot of fairy tales....the prince is kind of prize at the end rather than an important character... and half the time he seems to be a necrophiliac... I mean who kisses someone they've never met before who at best appears to be in a coma, as in Snow White and Sleeping Beauty? You have to wonder what kind of relationship they had after she woke up and started talking.... And don't get me started on the original Little Mermaid plotline.
    I haven't finished the series yet---waiting for the paperbacks, cheapo that I am---but from what I'm gathering from the above... yikes. I already didn't like Edward's controlling attitude (although I guess it was consistent with the age of his actual upbringing), which was so reminiscent of what abusers do, complete with isolation from all other influences (and abuse doesn't have to be physical), but the sex scene described above... As I've posted above, I rooted for her to hook up with Jacob, with whom she actually conversed and whom she got to know rather than being bowled over by a scent and marble statue looks.
    However, I'd be going along with the, yeah, good, they are reading, it's no worse than R & J (another bad message) or fairy tales... except for that blood story.... whoa... have to say I didn't see that coming. I realize those weren't typical fans, but still.... The readers seem to be taking this way too seriously! At least with HP I don't recall any kids actually carving Harry's scar into their faces....
    Last edited by PWS; 04-26-2009 at 05:47 PM.

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    Re: Anyone not like the Twilight series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionan;3424415;
    Click to see Spoiler:
    Well, the Cullens never thought of them as their mortal enemies(although there was some animosity, but i think that was mostly because of the pack's hostility to all vampires). However, other vampires did because they thought they were the "real" werewolves. As for the smell, maybe vampires just don't like the smell of shapeshifters?
    I thought that maybe
    Click to see Spoiler:
    it was just an ingrained dislike of anything remotely canine - the Cullens used the word "dog" as an insult towards the wolf pack. I also thought that maybe the author originally planned to keep the relationship between the Cullens and the wolves acrimonious and then decided to change course at some point. I'm totally guessing. If we're talking horror fiction lore, I'm more of a werewolf fan than a vampire one.


    PWS, both Jacob & Edward were much alike in their possessiveness of Bella. I think if one was to dissect the book and write an English essay about it, then you could take the modern view that Edward was controlling. Romeo & Juliet, to continue with that example, has been analyzed to death. (Pandora, you might not want to call Shakespeare's play a "romance" but the couple has been known throughout literary history as one of its greatest pair of lovers.) But I didn't read the books that way...I thought that Edward & Bella were meant to be the most old-fashioned, fairy-tale, wild, passionate, and yes, romantic couples. It's not about sending messages. What I made sure my daughter understood was this - the story is complete fantasy (which should be obvious when vampires and werewolves figure prominently, but I thought I should be crystal-clear with her regardless), that adults, much less teenagers, don't have such far-out intense love affairs, that getting married just out of high school is rarely a good idea, and that the characters were figments of an author's imagination and what they say & do does not mimic real life.

    I think the girls who went to such extreme lengths to get the attention of Robert Pattinson know that as well, or they should know it. I don't know how old you are, Pandora, but Elvis Presley and the Beatles provoked the same kind of hysterical reactions from fans and older people and non-fans were horrified by it. I also think that if there's a kid disturbed enough to claw her neck bloody then she has problems that go far beyond reading a vampire love story. It's like saying that Marilyn Manson and video games caused the Columbine massacre (and that accusation WAS thrown around at the time). It's unfortunate but disturbed people regularly latch on to celebrities and we can hardly blame the music, film or literature that "inspired" them, since the vast majority can enjoy all the different forms of culture and not become dangerously obsessed.

    No one wants you to shut up and go away, btw. Personally, I love to discuss books. Name the title and author of any one you've read and if I've read it too, we'll have a go.
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    Re: Anyone not like the Twilight series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cootie;3424383;
    I am having issues with my students in elementary school reading the Twilight books. Many children as young as first grade have stated that they saw the movie. And some students a little older are reading the books or their parents are reading them to them. They want to know why I don't buy them for my K-5 school. Yikes.
    I do agree that the Twilight books would generally be much better for the tween-and-older age groups. I first picked up the book "Wicked" from the young readers section at Walmart. After reading it, I was really surprised that it was placed there!

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    Re: Anyone not like the Twilight series?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClosetRTWatcher;3425065;
    I do agree that the Twilight books would generally be much better for the tween-and-older age groups. I first picked up the book "Wicked" from the young readers section at Walmart. After reading it, I was really surprised that it was placed there!
    Wicked was in a YA section? I adore the book but I wouldn't let younger ones read, same with the sequel which is also amazing and I heartily recommend. I was in Waterstones yesterday and I saw American Psycho and The Bell Jar in the YA section. Eek. (Okay I did read the former when I was 17 and the latter when I was about 15 and my sis did also but yikes, still pretty tough books to get through.) Guess it depends on what age you feel ready to move onto adult books. I did it at about 11, mainly to show off.

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    Re: Anyone not like the Twilight series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandora Box;3425492;
    Guess it depends on what age you feel ready to move onto adult books. I did it at about 11, mainly to show off.
    We must be cut from the same cloth - I read War and Peace when I was about 16, just because I wanted to be able to tell people I read it!

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    Re: Anyone not like the Twilight series?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClosetRTWatcher;3426996;
    We must be cut from the same cloth - I read War and Peace when I was about 16, just because I wanted to be able to tell people I read it!
    I like the way you do things.
    The strange thing is the older I get the more I look into YA books. There are some really fantastic ones out there. But being a uni student I keep those ones hidden away behind Hunchback of Notre Dame and Pride and Prejudice.

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    Re: Anyone not like the Twilight series?

    Quote Originally Posted by cantstopwatchin;3390425;
    Sorry, I beg to differ on most of your points, but esp. this post. There is nothing that says all writers have to follow a certain rule-- if that were the case, then all "fantasy" books would be so boring because they'd follow the same formulas! Thinking outside the box is what makes the world go round. Does a unicorn always have to be white or can they be other colors? What if someone described an elf before Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings-- do you think they would have told him he didn't follow the rules and therefore, his piece of work was rubbish? While Bram Stoker wrote "Dracula" I don't think that means, by any means, that he 'owns' the description of a vampire. He wrote about the vampires he saw in his head and SM wrote about those she saw.

    Every author creates a world unique to them; because it is their world, they can create the characters however they want, right down to the silly sparkles. Their only job is to make that world something we readers want to be a part of. Personally, I'd take the somewhat tortured vampires who want to be good versus Stoker's or Anne Rice's dark versions any day. [And Buffy has always been listed on my profile as the 1 show I miss, so believe me, I know vampire "lore".]

    I couldn't really relate to Bella until she became stronger in BD because that's more like me. However, in the 3 books prior, I felt all of the feelings Bella did and could relate to how much of an outsider she felt, moving to a new school and receiving the attention from the boys that she did. SM made me invested in her.

    As far as Edward-- I never saw him as controlling-- extremely overprotective, yes-- but never controlling. Bella always had a choice in everything, right down to whether she eventually chose him or Jacob. Yes, if you count the years, he was 90-something years old; however, he never had any experience in the relationship department, so he was just as much a virgin as Bella was. Therefore, I would never consider him a pedophile.

    And going along with Edward's being so overprotective-- I think this often overshadowed exactly how strong Bella actually was. She was willing to give up her life to protect her mom and she was willing to sacrifice herself again in Eclipse. She always put others before herself, often to her detriment, and that takes a strong person.

    Regarding the imprinting--well, it is what it is. SM obviously had Quil imprint with Claire to set the groundwork for what happens in BD. I thought they explained it pretty well and if Jacob had EVER had a pedophiliac thought, Edward would've known about it anyways.

    I only recently read Twilight because I'd heard it was a "teen" series, but a couple of months ago, I bought the set and loved them. There are few series where I've become so invested in the characters (Harry Potter, Belgariad, Sword of Truth, and Tolkien are the only other ones that come to mind) so when I find another series I feel this way about, I feel as though I've been given a gift by the author.

    Obviously, I'm not going to change your opinion (which you're welcome to) but I do respectfully disagree with some of your points.
    Love your post. This is exactly how I feel about this twilight saga.

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    Re: Anyone not like the Twilight series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandora Box;3424574;
    I guess I'm fighting a losing battle here but regarding the abusive relationship comment I made:

    If a guy constantly tells you what to do, that's abuse. Edward does this and also makes Bella do things she doesn't want to do, e.g. go to prom, have a birthday party (they may not seem like big deals but she's still being forced against her will to do something she doesn't want to.)
    I disagree. There are things you do for others even though you might not like the ideas at all becaues you love them and know them mean well. For instance, he clearly stated that he didn't want her to miss her prom, a memory of being human. He might have thought a prom meant a lot to a teenager, which she actually was. And having others throw you a birthday party is actually endearing despite how much you hate being the center of attention. Seriously, no one would throw you a party if they don't give a darn about you. So, read between the lines, see things in other perspective, I think.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandora Box;3424574;
    If a guy threatens suicide then that's abusive, as well as bloody stupid. Edward does this.
    Maybe I read the books wrong or different books because I didn't see anything abusive about him ending his life when she wasn't alive. He explained it to her why he wanted to die when it was her time to go; he couldn't live hundreds of years alone after he'd found the only one person who could keep his heart alive. If she was gone, his heart would die with her.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pandora Box;3424574;
    If a guy openly manipulates you in an effort to prevent you from seeing friends and/or family, that is abusive. Edward removes the engine from Bella's car so she won't go and see Jacob. He also has Alice follow her to make sure she doesn't sneak off.
    You can call him mothering, overbearing, overprotecting but manipulative? I don't think he was trying to manipulating her not seeing her freinds and family. At that time, they knew someone was trying to kill her and he did everything he thought was best to keep her alive. She was half his life. Can't you blame a guy for trying to protect half of his life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandora Box;3424574;
    He continually does stuff and makes decisions that go against Bella's wishes, like when he leaves in New Moon, he takes all the stuff that reminds her of him.
    Read it again. He did not take her belongins. He hid them in her room.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandora Box;3424574;
    After they get married (something Bella didn't want to do, remember), they do the act.
    And he didn't want to turn her into a vampire based on his belief of being one. It'd be double standard if she got what she wanted without being compromised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandora Box;3424574;
    When she wakes up in the morning, she is covered in bruises she doesn't remember getting. Sure, Edward is ashamed but her first thought afterwards is how to cover them up so as not to upset him! Please tell me I'm not the only one who has a problem with this. If you look on Facebook there are pieces of flair that say "I'd let Edward Cullen bruise me." No, no no! That's not even the worst behaviour I've heard of from fans. There have been reports of violence from fans, including the girls who clawed at their necks until they bled when they met Robert Pattinson and said "We did this for you." I'm a Harry Potter fan and I've seen some crazy things in the fandom but I've never seen self mutilation in the name of a book.

    Robert Pattinson's blood scare
    No comment on this because I don't know how it'd be like having passionate intimacy with a vampire. I know I do get hickeys and well... from another human, but he's just a human, you know, different species than vampires, so the passion must not be the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandora Box;3424574;
    I am all for young 'uns reading. I wholeheartedly support it. I also think that Twilight has a lot of potential to be an interesting story. But it's weighed down by bad writing and bad messages. If I had read Twilight when I was 14 or 15 I would have adored it and been one of those excitable fans.
    Exactly! The books are written for teens in ways they can relate to. I believed in a forever-love when I was a teenager, but as I grew older, I don't believe in eternity anymore. People do fall in and out of love. Sometimes, love does not last forever. People change with times. I believe those teenagers will change. Their view of today will be different than that of tomorrow. The idea of love and relationship will change as they age. Most people do anyway.
    Last edited by fluff; 05-13-2009 at 04:12 PM.

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