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Thread: The Harry Potter All Spoilers, All the Time Thread

  1. #41
    FORT Fogey MomLady's Avatar
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    Re: The Harry Potter All Spoilers, All the Time Thread

    Not sure if it was discussed.

    Which baby was crying when harry was talking to Dumbledore.

    Was it Harry as an infant.
    Was it the Voldemort's soul that was left the first time V attacked Harry?
    Was it Teddy, crying for his dead parents.

    Will come back later to look at responses.

  2. #42
    Toby's Slave kimrs's Avatar
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    Re: The Harry Potter All Spoilers, All the Time Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MomLady;2488591;
    Not sure if it was discussed.

    Which baby was crying when harry was talking to Dumbledore.

    Was it Harry as an infant.
    Was it the Voldemort's soul that was left the first time V attacked Harry?
    Was it Teddy, crying for his dead parents.

    Will come back later to look at responses.
    Just my opinion:
    I think the "thing" was Voldemort's soul. Because not all of the horcruxes were destroyed it was not formed into a complete being.

  3. #43
    FORT Fanatic Carla's Avatar
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    Re: The Harry Potter All Spoilers, All the Time Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MomLady;2488591;
    Not sure if it was discussed.

    Which baby was crying when harry was talking to Dumbledore.

    Was it Harry as an infant.
    Was it the Voldemort's soul that was left the first time V attacked Harry?
    Was it Teddy, crying for his dead parents.

    Will come back later to look at responses.
    I think it was the part of Voldemort's soul that was attached to Harry. I may have to think this through a bit more, but here's how I see it. (Something that happened in Goblet of Fire is important here.)

    It starts out with the prophecy. There was alot of debate on the internet (long before DH came out) regarding what it meant, exactly. In interviews, Jo said that the wording was chosen very carefully.

    From page 841 in the OoTP -

    "THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD APPROACHES...BORN TO THOSE WHO HAVE THRICE DEFIED HIM, BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES...AND THE DARK LORD WILL MARK HIM AS HIS EQUAL, BUT HE WILL HAVE POWER THE DARK LORD KNOWS NOT...AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHER FOR NEITHER CAN LIVE WHILE THE OTHER SURVIVES

    At first blush, it appears that either Harry must kill Voldemort, or Voldemort must kill Harry. But, if you consider the part that I put in bold, it could also mean that both must die, which is exactly what Dumbledore told Snape while he was telling Snape about a portion of Voldemort's soul attaching onto Harry the night Voldemort tried to kill Harry. (Because of Harry's mother's sacrifice.) As long as that part of Voldemort's soul lived on in Harry, Voldemort could not die. Therefore, Harry must die.

    So, it now appears that Dumbledore has betrayed Harry. That the whole time he was supposedly helping him to stay alive (indefinitely), he was only helping him stay alive so that he could die "at the right moment", right? Even Harry seems to realize this at the beginning of Chapter 34.

    But this is where an important part in the Goblet of Fire comes in. Remember how Dumbledore expressed a sort of triumph when Harry told him that Voldemort had used Harry's blood?

    From GoF - page 696

    '"He said my blood would make him stronger than if he'd used someone else's," Harry told Dumbledore. "He said the protection my - my mother left in me - he'd have it too. And he was right - he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face."

    For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But next second, Harry was sure he had imagined it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him."'

    I think that Dumbledore knew then that, by rebuilding his body with Harry's blood, Lily's protection was now inside both of them and that, as long as Voldemort lived, so would Harry. Therefore, Voldemort would never be able to kill Harry. (I'm not sure why he didn't tell Snape this.) It's another example of Voldemort's arrogance/lack of knowledge. Had he used Cedric's blood, I think Harry would be dead now.

    From DH - page 709

    '"He took my blood," said Harry.

    "Precisely!" said Dumbledore. "He took your blood and rebuilt his living body with it! Your blood in his veins, Harry, Lily's protection inside both of you! He tethered you to life while he lives!"'

    So now Voldemort "kills" Harry and Harry ends up in King's Cross, where he sees the flayed-looking child. Now look forward to Chapter 36. Just as Harry passed out/had a near-death experience (I'm not quite sure just what happened yet - I haven't thought it through completely), so did Voldemort. His death eaters are helping him up off the ground.

    Now look forward to page 741 of DH. Harry is encouraging Voldemort to show some remorse. He tells him that he's seen what he'll become otherwise, that being the flayed-looking child at King's Cross. He's just there in this form for all of eternity. I also think this is why, if Harry went back, Voldemort may or may not be finished for good.

    From DH on page 722 -

    '"I think," said Dumbledore, "that if you choose to return, there is a chance that he may be finished for good. I cannot promise it. But I know this, Harry, that you have less to fear from returning here than he does."'

    I suppose it's possible (though not likely) that Voldemort might have shown some remorse and lived.

    Image how it would be to spend eternity in that form.

    So, now the question becomes, if Voldemort was protected by Harry's mother's sacrifice as Harry was, why did he die and Harry didn't? I think that's because Harry was willing to sacrifice his life (and therefore took the Avada Kedavra hit willingly) to protect those he loved, while Voldemort took the Avada Kedavra hit simply because his own spell backfired on him.
    Last edited by Carla; 07-24-2007 at 10:10 PM.

  4. #44
    CCL
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    Re: The Harry Potter All Spoilers, All the Time Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Carla
    Now look forward to page 741 of DH. Harry is encouraging Voldemort to show some remorse. He tells him that he's seen what he'll become otherwise, that being the flayed-looking child at King's Cross. He's just there in this form for all of eternity. I also think this is why, if Harry went back, Voldemort may or may not be finished for good.
    The only way the piece of soul contained in a horcrux can return to a person's body was if that person felt remorse for the murder he had committed in creating the horcrux (I can't remember where this was said but I double-checked with wikipedia and it says the same). The wikipedia entry said that for the murderer to confront his deed often caused so much pain as to have the opposite effect, so that instead of having the piece of soul returned to him, the killer could be torn apart by his remorse and die accordingly. Perhaps Harry was remembering this & thought he could maybe get Voldemort to kill himself by feeling remorse? Though we all know that was never going to happen. And by the time Harry is facing Voldemort, urging him to show remorse, all the horcruxes are gone. So even if Voldemort had shown remorse he couldn't get any pieces of soul back. Maybe Harry was thinking more along "Christian" lines, getting Voldemort to repent so that he could meet his death humbly and, maybe, not end up like the flayed child in King's Cross.
    I think the flayed child image is going to be one of those things puzzled upon for some time, unless JK Rowling clarifies exactly what it is meant to represent.
    If you type "google" into google you can break the internet.

  5. #45
    FORT Fogey katgib13's Avatar
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    Re: The Harry Potter All Spoilers, All the Time Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kimrs;2488825;
    Just my opinion:
    I think the "thing" was Voldemort's soul. Because not all of the horcruxes were destroyed it was not formed into a complete being.
    But they were all destroyed. Ron and Hermione took care of the goblet, Ron killed the locket, Neville offed the snake and the little piece living in Harry was killed during the first attack in the forest when Harry didn't die. Dumbledore took care of the ring, if I'm not mistaken and the diary bit the big one, too. At the final face-off, all the Horcruxes were toast, so to speak...

  6. #46
    Wonky snarkmistress Lucy's Avatar
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    Re: The Harry Potter All Spoilers, All the Time Thread

    They weren't all destroyed at that time, when Harry was in the limbo-land, or whatever it was -- Voldemort himself was still alive. So part of his soul still existed, in himself.

    And to answer an earlier question, about why he couldn't kill Harry but Harry could kill him -- when he tried to kill Harry there was still a part of Harry in Voldemort, but afterwards, there was none of Voldemort left when he was killed. If that makes sense.

    Anyway, I'm delighted to hear about the pending encyclopedia. I know she has some of the back stories of characters, like Dean Thomas, on her website. I always wished she'd write "A History of Magic" or "Hogwarts: A History" too.
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  7. #47
    FORT Fanatic Carla's Avatar
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    Re: The Harry Potter All Spoilers, All the Time Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CCL;2488949;
    The only way the piece of soul contained in a horcrux can return to a person's body was if that person felt remorse for the murder he had committed in creating the horcrux (I can't remember where this was said but I double-checked with wikipedia and it says the same). The wikipedia entry said that for the murderer to confront his deed often caused so much pain as to have the opposite effect, so that instead of having the piece of soul returned to him, the killer could be torn apart by his remorse and die accordingly. Perhaps Harry was remembering this & thought he could maybe get Voldemort to kill himself by feeling remorse? Though we all know that was never going to happen. And by the time Harry is facing Voldemort, urging him to show remorse, all the horcruxes are gone. So even if Voldemort had shown remorse he couldn't get any pieces of soul back. Maybe Harry was thinking more along "Christian" lines, getting Voldemort to repent so that he could meet his death humbly and, maybe, not end up like the flayed child in King's Cross.
    I think the flayed child image is going to be one of those things puzzled upon for some time, unless JK Rowling clarifies exactly what it is meant to represent.
    That could very well be. I guess the point I was trying to make was that if Voldemort decided to show true remorse, he wouldn't try to kill Harry again and his own spell wouldn't rebound on him, killing him. But what you say makes sense and it seems I recall thinking that it was also possible that, although his body would be dead, his soul would survive if he showed remorse.

    I completely missed the part about the killer being torn apart by his remorse and dying. I think you may have read that in Deathly Hallows itself. Hermione summoned the book on horcruxes from Dumbledore's office so maybe she explained this to Ron and Harry. I'll have to look for it on the re-read. Interesting! And yeah, I agree that it's an issue that is a little unclear and will be debated.

    Oh, and I almost forgot to mention. While it's alot of fun debating all of these issues, the most important question is still up for debate -

    What was Aberforth doing with all of those goats?
    Last edited by Carla; 07-24-2007 at 10:48 PM. Reason: add to post

  8. #48
    FORT Fogey katgib13's Avatar
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    Re: The Harry Potter All Spoilers, All the Time Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy;2488983;
    They weren't all destroyed at that time, when Harry was in the limbo-land, or whatever it was -- Voldemort himself was still alive. So part of his soul still existed, in himself.
    True, but I don't consider Voldemort to be a Horcrux...after all, it is his soul. But I'll concede and rephrase...all but the little nugget that Voldemort carried around was destroyed. The actual physical objects and the bit in Harry were gone.

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    Re: The Harry Potter All Spoilers, All the Time Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by katgib13;2489002;
    True, but I don't consider Voldemort to be a Horcrux...after all, it is his soul. But I'll concede and rephrase...all but the little nugget that Voldemort carried around was destroyed. The actual physical objects and the bit in Harry were gone.
    The snake was also a horcrux and still alive at this point. Neville didn't kill it until after Harry 'died' and that's why Harry & Voldemort were both able to return. The curse that Voldemort hit Harry with rebounded on him as well, that's what the "infant" in King's Cross was - the last bit of his soul, and because one horcrux remained they were both still tied to the living world.

  10. #50
    FORT Fogey katgib13's Avatar
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    Re: The Harry Potter All Spoilers, All the Time Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by helpmeturnitoff;2489011;
    The snake was also a horcrux and still alive at this point. Neville didn't kill it until after Harry 'died' and that's why Harry & Voldemort were both able to return. The curse that Voldemort hit Harry with rebounded on him as well, that's what the "infant" in King's Cross was - the last bit of his soul, and because one horcrux remained they were both still tied to the living world.

    That's true. Although I think I was responding to a question (originally) about the final duel. Hell...now I'm confused!

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