*sigh* I don't know, JR, she just started crying and then saying, "Maybe I like to torture myself." I don't know what to do anymore, or how else I can help her and it makes me so sad. She's a wonderful person and should be with someone who really wants and deserves her. :ohno
I think actually I'm going to try Lucy's suggestion--see if I can make a deal with her, and cajole her into reading this book with lunch or a spa thingy, something to make her feel good about herself (at the same time I can ask her how she feels about what she read). Or like Broadway was saying, maybe I should get a copy for myself, and if she doesn't read it, I'll know and can quote stuff to her. I hope this doesn't sound mean but I have to admit to you guys I occasionally wish I could just grab her by the shoulders and shake some sense into her.
I'd like to jump in here with my opinion - I hope you don't mind. However, it sounds to me like you've been listening to your friend agonize over this guy for a heck of a long time - right? And, you listen to her and probably tell her that she needs to move on, but she never does, right? Well, I think it's time to try something different. Trying to make her read this book is a good idea, but since she isn't cooperating, switch gears. If all she ever thinks about or talks about is this guy - it's time to give her something ELSE to think about. Drag her out to a dance class, take her out shopping for something hot and then go clubbing. Take some pictures of her and sign her up on Match.com or one of the other dating websites. The poor thing sounds like she's starving for attention - if she get enough attention from other areas, she'll start noticing that El Jerko isn't "all that".
You're a good friend Snowflake - your bud's lucky to have you.
I think a lot of people have the ' if he/she wants me, they can't be good enough syndrome', but there comes a point where it's no longer fair to dump your relationship problems on friends without doing something to change the situation. To do the same thing over and over again, and to expect different results is the height of insanity, but it's amazing what people will put up with simply because it's familiar. If someone wants to be with someone bad enough, they'll be with that person, as long as it's mutual. What I have noticed about straight woman, though I know this is a generalization, is that they like the bad guys, the aloof guys, the Johnny Depp guys, the mysterious guys, but those types make the worst boyfriends. Ask Kate Moss.
Denial is a lovely thing.
As for what you could do to get her to get what the book is about, tie her up and read it to her?
Honestly, the phrase "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink" comes to mind here. If she doesn't want to read the book because god forbid she may figure out that she has been wasting her time with this guy, there isn't a darn thing you can do about it.
On second thought....this could be tricky but it might work. If you start sticking up for him, for example, she calls up crying about how he is treating her. You keep saying postive or neutral things about him. For example, she is crying about his seeing other women for sex...you could say "well, maybe he does need more sex then you." This way she can't get into defense mode about him. The usual pattern is she calls up crying, right? You say something about "god what a jerk he is, he is moran" whatever...she then goes into defending him mode. So she keeps repeating her little denial defense about him "oh you don't understand him like I do" or "he is really a good person" whatever drivel she is fooling herself with. If you don't attack him, she can't fall back into defending him. If you take his side even slightly, she keeps having to repeat what her problems are with him. She has to convince you, that this guy is mistreating her. Getting someone to believe something isn't a matter of you saying something to her over and over, it's a matter of getting them to say it over and over. Because the more they say it, the more they believe it and own it and realise that they can do something about it.
It might be hard to do. But I've noticed one thing, I'm getting a divorce. I can say many bad things about my soon to be ex husband. But the second someone crosses a line and says something bad about him (even if I know it to be true) I still swing into defense mode of him. Dumb, but I do it. Done it for years. Fooled myself for ages. Denial is an amazing thing. Should have read the stupid book myself if it had been around 20 years ago.
(why is there no spelcheck in edit)
:yeahthat Very wise words Lucy and I unfortunately relate to those words more than I care to admit. Why oh why do we do these things? :ohno
Originally Posted by Lucy
Snowie-I hope your friend can open her eyes to the other possibilities sooner than later. It is so heart wrenching to see someone you care about going through that torment. Good luck-everyone has great advice here already.
Why kill the guy? He really isn't to blame here, or at least that's how it seems to me.
Originally Posted by SnowflakeGirl
The guy has told her, seemingly in so many words, that he isn't interested in her that way. It's like if I told the Milkman "No, I don't want you to deliver milk to my door, and I'm not going to pay for it", and he still delivers the milk each week, without leaving a bill. Should I wake up at 5 AM and run after the milk truck to give it back? Hell no! I'm going to drink free milk!
I also recently got out of a relationship where both of us were just not into each other. I am glad I got out, because shortly thereafter, I met a great girl who WAS into me, and likewise, I am totally into her.
Yeah, Snowy, I would recommend showing your friend some options. Match.com is a really good service, and more and more people are getting into it. It's how I met my girlfriend.
Oh yeah, one more thing....there was an article on CNN.com about this book, its authors, and how the whole thing came about. Sorry, couldn't find the link right now.
Mrdob.... I can agree and disagree with your analogy about the milkman, but..... *you* have got to realize that *you're* stealing the free milk so wouldn't that make *you* realize that *you're* doing something wrong and therefore should leave the milk sitting on the porch, realizing that the milkman would take the hint and stop leaving it? It's one thing if both parties realize the fallacy behind the relationship, but when one person does and the other obviously does not.... that knowing party needs to stop taking advantage of the one in denial (aka the milkman.)
I came back to this thread to let Snowie know that the Oprah episode regarding this book is airing again this Wednesday, apparently. I haven't seen it, so I don't know whether it would be a great tool to encourage your friend to watch... hoping that something will click once and for all. Maybe something will finally sink in that this guy might love her, but not be *in* love with her once and for all. :shrug
My very best friend in the world was in a toxic relationshipt for a long time. He slept with other women, did drugs and stayed at her place all the time and ate her food. She finally got tired of him, but not before becoming pregnant with his son, and so she has to keep in touch. She went on an on about it. I talked to him about what she was doing to my friend, he listened and seemed to understand but then he went on and did the exact same thing again. But finally I couldn't deal with it any more, and I had a long talk with her, saying that it was hurting me very much that she kept talking to me about it, but kept ignoring my advice. She accepted this (she is a really good friend) and stopped using me as a sounding board, but didn't stop talking to me about other things. Now she is not in a relationship with him, but still has to keep in touch because of their kid (who is wonderful, btw.).
MrDob: What can I say, I fully admit to being biased toward my friend. I'm more concerned about her welfare than this guy's insatiable thirst for milk.
Broadway: Thanks for telling me about the Oprah ep. I'll probably watch it myself and tape it; if it seems good, I might give her the tape to watch (Clockwork Orange-style, with eye clamps :lol J/K!).
Astrogirl: My problem is not that I no longer want her to talk to me about her relationship. Yes, it's true I get frustrated that it seems like my advice is in one ear, out the other; but I wouldn't want her to not talk to me about something she's going through, if it's important in her life. In fact, I feel the need to be there for her even more strongly, as she feels vulnerable and alone enough as it is.
I understand, but you might try to tell her that it actually hurts you when she ignores your advice and hurts herself. My friend respected my feelings a lot more than her own. Which is messed up, but it worked.
Originally Posted by SnowflakeGirl
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