I hear you Speed. Just went through it myself.
I hear you Speed. Just went through it myself.
I don't receive HBO, so I've never seen SEX IN THE CITY. However, I was home the day that Oprah had the author on the show and it was extremely interesting.
They had several women already selected from the audience, perhaps 3-4, that told their story of them and their "man".
Now, as an outsider, it was painfully, painfully obvious to see that each and every one of these women were being used and that the man in question was NEVER going to advance the relationship. But, the author listened to each story, and then in his fashion, he would "guy speak" to these ladies and say, at the end, "Sorry, he's just NOT that into you!"
I don't know what to blame it on, the inability for women to have radar that allows them to perceive Incoming Jerks. It could be cultural: the Beauty and the Beast phenomenon, where women from a very early age are taught, by society, that within every beast there's a Prince that just needs to be found. Why is it that there is not a popular children's book entitled, "Handsome and the Beast", where a young, gorgious prince is taught to find the inner beauty in a beastly woman? If you're laughing right now, that's your answer.
It could be nurturing by proxy: that girls see/hear their own mothers "put up with" their dads, and they think that that is something that they have to do, also.
It could be generational: that women over the age of late 20's have seen too many movies, too much TV where "love is a battlefield" and the women are supposed to win the 'war' by taking a Bad Boy and showing him the error of his ways.
Or, it could be all of this and none of this.
Of the young girls that are friends of mine (all under 16 and friends since 8), NONE of them, so far has dated and NONE of them show even the desire to do so. They have strong female role models, something that older women didn't have in society, (unless you count Mary Tyler Moore and Marlo Thomas as role models!); they've seen the crap relationships that their moms had, they know about gay lifestyles and the need to NOT marry; they know about birth control. All of these girls that I know are insistent about going to Uni and receiving their degrees first, and settling for a bad relationship last.
Maybe the hope for health is in the younger generation.
Still crazy, after all these shears
"lambikins, put the crack pipe down and back away from the keyboard." Unklescott
"lambikins... I have come to the conclusion that you are the Jedi Master of the Kitchen on FORT!" SuperBrat
Actually that is pretty much the plot of Shakespeare's Taming of the Shrew, but the guy (Petruchio) finds Katherine's "inner beauty" by pretty much beating her into submission until she will states that the sun is really the moon just because he tells her to. Not a happy fairy tale for modern women, but pretty much a cultural counterpart to Beauty and the Beast. I personally preferred the tv show Moonlighting's take on Shrew, if anyone is old enough to remember that episode.Originally Posted by lambikins
I think it might be cultural, and hopefully younger women are less like to "settle" for crappy relationships in which they are being treated disrespectfully by their man, but demographically it's tough to be "really picky" about who you date as you get into your late 30s and beyond because the number of men willing to date women our age diminishes. Guys want to date younger women, and very rarely does it go the other way (though "tadpoling has become a little bit of a trend lately.")
I remember seeing part of the Oprah show when the author was on. As a male, some of what he was saying I agreed with, but some of his examples I had to reflect and think, hmmm, I might be guilty of that and trust me, it wasn't because I didn't want to go out with the girl!
I got the impression (just from his appearance on the show, obviously I haven't read the book) that he was trying to make everything so black and white - such as, if he's into you, he'll automatically do this, this and this. When in reality, I sometimes find out months later that someone had interest in me that I just never had a clue and would've followed up with had I definitely been sure, or just not as shy.
But of course, these Morrissey lyrics pretty much sum up my dating philosophy:
"Rejection is one thing, but rejection from a fool is cruel..." (and I'd just rather not be rejected at all, thankyouverymuch, heh)
"...shyness can stop you from doing all the things in life you'd like to..." (yet I just can't seem to do anything about it, oh well)
so mozzz, have you ever actually been "too shy" or "too busy" to ask someone out if you really wanted to? Don't answer if you don't want to, of course, but the book kind of takes away those "excuses" and like you said, make it very black and white that if a guy was truly into a woman he would risk rejection for a chance to get to know her better. I think it goes both ways because a female friend of mine was making up "I'm too busy to . . . "excuses for a guy we know who was fishing around trying to ask her out, when really what she meant (but didn't want to have to say, as she thought it was too bitchy) was "I'm not interested enough in you to make time for a date."
Actually, yes. Definitely all the time with the 'too shy' part of the question, and there have certainly been times when I was 'too busy' to follow up and missed the window of opportunity to call her back or get in touch. I wish my life was as black and white as the author suggests, but I just find that it is not.have you ever actually been "too shy" or "too busy" to ask someone out if you really wanted to?
I don't suppose he makes exceptions in the book for guys who might be shy? Or does he make any exceptions at all? I get the impression he doesn't. Ouch, that would be harsh. *hopes women in Seattle have not read the book* heh
Trust me, women in Seattle are reading the book.
It's interesting that you'd bring up shyness. That was my most common rationalization: he's too shy to call; he's too shy to ask me out; he's too shy to want to meet my parents or my friends; he's too shy to demonstrate how he feels.
But the shy excuse only works for so long. After that if he fails to take any initiative ... I figure he's just not into me.
I do think, however, that older women need this book more than younger women. Those of us who grew up with Henry Fonda fathers (strong, silent, emotionally distant) learned to read lots of things into behaviors because our daddies didn't express themselves through language.
We learned to read and analyze behaviors several psychological layers down, which is where the bizarre rationalizations come in. I no longer do this, but it took me 20 years to get wise.
"Neo-fascist movements do not advance gradually by persuasion; they first transform the terms of the debate, create a new movement based on untrammeled emotion, take over existing institutions, and then ruthlessly exploit events." — Andrew Sullivan
I have seen the book talked about and I would say from what I have read and heard, it definately has some merit for the over 30 crowd. I think for folks in their 20's, there are too many other possible reasons for things (such as shyness) that it would be tough to rely on it.
Something I tell folks who I may date now in the >>20 years age bracket is that most men are pretty straight forward. Like candor says, women love to read things into what we do, and that is many times a mistake. Basically most guys I know are an open book. If they like you, you know it. If they don't, you feel like you are chasing. That doesn't work. If they say they want to go golfing on Saturday, it probably because they want to go golfing on Saturday, and not any of the hundreds of other reasons the female mind can quickly assign to the situation.
Beyond a certain age, we don't bother playing any games. At that point, the book is right on track.
"George Oscar Bluth II, aka GOB, featured magician in the best selling videotape, "Girls With Low Self Esteem" invites you to enter his world.
-- Arrested Development, Season III
Exactly Bill. Actions speak louder than words. I don't care who you are or what you do, you're NEVER too busy for a phone call. What does it take, a minute? " Hi, sorry I can't make it _____, how about _____?". If a person is interested, they will make time, no one is busy 24/7.Originally Posted by Bill
And, if the person is really that shy where they can't or won't do anything, would you want to be in a relationship like that? Everything would be a major issue, more work than fun.
Hey folks...I have a friend that is having a hard time coming to grips with a relationship in which it's abundantly clear the guy wants nothing more to do with her. I actually got her to buy this book, but the kicker is she REFUSES TO READ IT!
I love her and I can't bear to see her in pain any more. It's been almost two years of the same thing with this man, and she needs to move on. If I could I'd beat him to death with this book for making my friend suffer--but it's also partially her thing too because she's very much in denial.
I was hoping this book would help, but if she refuses to even look at it, what am I supposed to do?
Does anyone have any suggestions on how I could just get her to read the thing?
Sending good vibes and warm fuzzies your way..., SnowflakeGirl
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