Behind the Edit **SPOILERS**

[chrisg]

Originally Posted by procheervet

Then please explain why so many people are so over the top about Deanna choosing Jason, a man who, for her to be with him, requires more sacrifice on Deanna's part than any other man on the show?

The obvious difference between Jason and Graham is the commitment each seems ready, willing and able to make to DeAnna. Nothing in life is easy but chasing after guys who aren't ready for marriage when you are is hitting your head against an AVOIDABLE brick wall.

Maturity is deciding what you want in life and what you're willing to give up to get it. DeAnna seems to want to get married and ready to give up hitting her head against that brick wall of guys who aren't ready. She also--if she chooses Jason--is willing to give up paths that would undeniably be 'easier' in other ways. In that scenario, however, she is not giving up her goal of marriage but rather expanding it to include Jason's son.

I completely get that you like Graham. He was my favorite the first night for DeAnna. And I still adore him all the same but IMO he is not right for DeAnna b/c I believe that she is ready to get married and he--IMO--painfully, obviously is not.

[Google]

 

[xseannax]

Originally Posted by shellys

I have a completely different perspective of Jason and Dee possibly choosing him.

1) He has shown he wants to be married and committed to one woman before...unfortunately his wife didn't want to stay married for whatever reason. He wants that again....commitment is not an issue with him. He WANTS to share his life with someone again.

2) He's a great father and has said his child is the most important thing in his life. Wow... what better way for Dee to know what kind of man he is and what kind of father he will be to their future children, by seeing how committed he is to Ty.

The "sacrifice" Dee would make with Jason are logistical and involve Ty. They can work through that.

With Graham, the issues seem to be inherent in his personality, ability to communicate, and emotional maturity. Not to mention the red flags about him being able to commit to a long term relationship, and is in truly in a place where he's ready for marriage. If he does bail on this process (under the guise of personal issues or whatever) it's simply confirms he's either not that interested, or if he is, he's not willing to commit himself and work hard at making a relationhip succeed when things don't go well and there are hurdles to overcome.

The bottom line is the difference with Jason is the issues are known factors, and Dee can make an informed decision as to whether or not she wants to take those on.

With Graham...it's question marks, unknowns, red flags, and what appear to be possible commitment issues and personality traits.

The unknown is many times a far greater risk.

Just my opinion.

Great post. I don't think anyone is meaning to be unfair or critical of Graham. He's just simply "not there" yet, whereas Jason and Jeremy are. Graham is not at a place where he is emotionally ready to make that commitment. I grew up with a guy that was 500% into football--he plays in the NFL and does charity work--along with having a wife and 2 kids. Being an athlete does not keep you from being able to have a meaningful relationship. Yes, some do elect to focus only on their career (and good for them!), but a lot of the time that is a personal choice that they make.

I think people who see the great passion between Graham and Dee are the ones falling for the editing trick, but the people who see all the red flags are going behind the edit. If Graham really wanted Dee, he would step it up and do everything he could to stay. I think after getting there he realized he wasn't up for the challenge, and it could be for a host of reasons..not being into her as much as she was in to him, not being ready for a relationship, personal/family reasons, or not wanting to take part in this crazy process.

[ilovemick]

Originally Posted by procheervet

Karey - you and I have agreed many times in the past and I really respect you, so this is hard for me to say, but I think you are way off base here. We are seeing what Fleiss wants us to see of this man and since he was probably initially D's F1 until he leaves F4 we are getting a very mixed edit. To attempt to psychoanalyze someone based upon a biased edit seems incredibly unfair. Lack of eye contact could also a mean a man who is a bit shy around women. Lack of a long term relationship has been explained by his friends as due to his commitment first to this sport and now to his charity. I have two sons who play sports seriously and trust me, there is no time for a serious relationship when you are in the gym every morning, at practice every day, and then have games your life is consumed by your sport and you miss out on many, many things. Few women will accept that kind of relationship. I am very surprised to hear you so adamantly assume the worst of someone that, in reality, we do not know. He has been described in very positive ways by people who actually got to know him and from all appearances is a real stand up guy. Just because you do not adapt well to speed dating a woman who is being pursued by numerous other guys does not mean you have "issues". To be honest, I see him as being much more real and true to himself than the men who act like it is not a problem that she is "involved" with other men.

Procheervet,
I agree with you whole heartedly. I have defended him, tried to protect him, I am flabbergasted by what some people say about him, and I don't see that at all. They are not watching the same show as I am. I really don't know why I keep posting! I read a post and I want to explode!!! Everything you have written I feel. I have never felt this way about a person on here before where I will come to these boards and defend them like I know them! I hope he is happy and I wish him luck in life and love.

[wonderintern]

Originally Posted by simplechef

I wonder if anyone has considered that Graham didn't come back because he realized he and Deanna are miles apart in communication. She's a very strong person and maybe Graham realized she not the girl for HIM (and self aware enough that he's not the right guy for her). I don't think we can assume that Graham is running from her or not mature enough to have a long term relationship. Maybe he didn't like the way she acted toward him... Maybe he just wasn't all that interested. He's admittedly a shy guy. The eye contact issues can be related to that. I personally plan to cut Graham a little slack!

or maybe she cuts him herself on the htd while they're there

[MissMilano]

Originally Posted by shellys

I have a completely different perspective of Jason and Dee possibly choosing him.

1) He has shown he wants to be married and committed to one woman before...unfortunately his wife didn't want to stay married for whatever reason. He wants that again....commitment is not an issue with him. He WANTS to share his life with someone again.

2) He's a great father and has said his child is the most important thing in his life. Wow... what better way for Dee to know what kind of man he is and what kind of father he will be to their future children, by seeing how committed he is to Ty.

The "sacrifice" Dee would make with Jason are logistical and involve Ty. They can work through that.

With Graham, the issues seem to be inherent in his personality, ability to communicate, and emotional maturity. Not to mention the red flags about him being able to commit to a long term relationship, and is in truly in a place where he's ready for marriage. If he does bail on this process (under the guise of personal issues or whatever) it simply confirms he's either not that interested, or if he is, he's not willing to commit himself and work hard at making a relationhip succeed when things don't go well and there are hurdles to overcome.

The bottom line is the difference with Jason is the issues are known factors, and Dee can make an informed decision as to whether or not she wants to take those on.

With Graham...it's question marks, unknowns, red flags, and what appear to be possible commitment issues and personality traits.

The unknown is many times a far greater risk.

Just my opinion.

Shellys - - great post! Also, given the fact taht Dee has stated numerous times that she wants a man who knows what he wants, this would make her frustrations that much more pronounced with Graham and make her even more fearful of stepping into the unknown.

[librarylady]

Originally Posted by shellys

I have a completely different perspective of Jason and Dee possibly choosing him.

1) He has shown he wants to be married and committed to one woman before...unfortunately his wife didn't want to stay married for whatever reason. He wants that again....commitment is not an issue with him. He WANTS to share his life with someone again.

2) He's a great father and has said his child is the most important thing in his life. Wow... what better way for Dee to know what kind of man he is and what kind of father he will be to their future children, by seeing how committed he is to Ty.

The "sacrifice" Dee would make with Jason are logistical and involve Ty. They can work through that.

With Graham, the issues seem to be inherent in his personality, ability to communicate, and emotional maturity. Not to mention the red flags about him being able to commit to a long term relationship, and is in truly in a place where he's ready for marriage. If he does bail on this process (under the guise of personal issues or whatever) it simply confirms he's either not that interested, or if he is, he's not willing to commit himself and work hard at making a relationhip succeed when things don't go well and there are hurdles to overcome.

The bottom line is the difference with Jason is the issues are known factors, and Dee can make an informed decision as to whether or not she wants to take those on.

With Graham...it's question marks, unknowns, red flags, and what appear to be possible commitment issues and personality traits.

The unknown is many times a far greater risk.

Just my opinion.

I completely agree with your post, especially the bolded part. In the deliberation room the very week of her 1-on-1 with Jason and finding out about Ty, she told Chris H that she knew she would always be Jason's #1 woman and seems to have already worked through the issues. I would never predict that their relationship will last forever, but I do think we are seeing enough substance between them that they will give it a go--at least for the short run.

[BuckeyeGal007]

Originally Posted by simplechef

I wonder if anyone has considered that Graham didn't come back because he realized he and Deanna are miles apart in communication. She's a very strong person and maybe Graham realized she not the girl for HIM (and self aware enough that he's not the right guy for her). I don't think we can assume that Graham is running from her or not mature enough to have a long term relationship. Maybe he didn't like the way she acted toward him... Maybe he just wasn't all that interested. He's admittedly a shy guy. The eye contact issues can be related to that. I personally plan to cut Graham a little slack!

I think that Graham likes DeAnna...but that's just it...likes. I don't think he sees any kind of romantic future with her like she does with him. Communication is obviously an issue between them as well, which you got spot on simple! I think that the premise of the show is just simply not Graham's 'cup of tea' and he just doesn't know how to cope with it.

Given meeting under different circumstances, who knows. I think Graham's a good guy and will make some girl very happy one day.

[hannelorea]

Originally Posted by simplechef

I wonder if anyone has considered that Graham didn't come back because he realized he and Deanna are miles apart in communication. She's a very strong person and maybe Graham realized she not the girl for HIM (and self aware enough that he's not the right guy for her). I don't think we can assume that Graham is running from her or not mature enough to have a long term relationship. Maybe he didn't like the way she acted toward him... Maybe he just wasn't all that interested. He's admittedly a shy guy. The eye contact issues can be related to that. I personally plan to cut Graham a little slack!

ITA and well put. I've known guys who are appear to be commitment fearful when in reality, they just haven't found the one they couldn't go on living without. I think they are just trying to work out their personalities to see if they would be a good match. Let's not analyze the poor guy to death because he isn't as smooth as some of the others.

[KareyR2]

Originally Posted by procheervet

Karey - you and I have agreed many times in the past and I really respect you, so this is hard for me to say, but I think you are way off base here. We are seeing what Fleiss wants us to see of this man and since he was probably initially D's F1 until he leaves F4 we are getting a very mixed edit. To attempt to psychoanalyze someone based upon a biased edit seems incredibly unfair. Lack of eye contact could also a mean a man who is a bit shy around women. Lack of a long term relationship has been explained by his friends as due to his commitment first to this sport and now to his charity. I have two sons who play sports seriously and trust me, there is no time for a serious relationship when you are in the gym every morning, at practice every day, and then have games your life is consumed by your sport and you miss out on many, many things. Few women will accept that kind of relationship. I am very surprised to hear you so adamantly assume the worst of someone that, in reality, we do not know. He has been described in very positive ways by people who actually got to know him and from all appearances is a real stand up guy. Just because you do not adapt well to speed dating a woman who is being pursued by numerous other guys does not mean you have "issues". To be honest, I see him as being much more real and true to himself than the men who act like it is not a problem that she is "involved" with other men.

Hey procheervet!!
Look, I respect your opinion too...we just disagree is all and see things differently. Certainly I am seeing Grayham through an edited version...but please take into account that all the men are being edited. I find it disheartening at this point to read many people proclaiming a wonderful man like Jason being an F1 by default., because Gray left at F4! Not that you said that in this post, but I am hearing that, and just feel it is so unfair to DeJay, because we haven't even seen those edited scenes yet...and again DeJay are being edited as well, and their very strong emotional and physical connection is being edited as well...but even so, appears to be growing! Fleiss has a story to tell after all. I just have to remind myself of Trista's season, and remember that they were all edited, and as much as I wanted Ryan to be F1, I was stunned when Charlie stepped out of the limo first! So in retrospect.....Gray is not the only one being edited....all the men are, including Jay, so that argument goes both ways! But I digress.....

I do feel that Gray is probably a wonderful friend and buddy...but his admitted dating history concerns me greatly, and the difficulties he seems to be having in his interactions with DeAnna. This is a man who was a professional athelete so is used to competition, he is a model, so used to cameras and displaying himself! Do I see physical chemistry..yes I do...but sadly, mostly on DeAnna's part. Do I see her trying to get more happening...yes I do. But so far, it is just not happening for me with them, as much as she might want it. I feel she is going to tire of this, and is already frustrated by it, and she is looking elsewhere. When something is right, and good, it is not such difficult work and flows much more naturally, even in this process. JMO though

Regarding your whole argument regarding Grayham and his lack of dating history due to his being a professional athlete, and now his charity work, and he is just too busy etc etc....well that argument just doesn't fly with me either. (I'm truly not trying to be difficult here ) If that argument were the case that one can not have a relationship due to sports or charity work, then we would have no married professional or Olympic athletes, and certainly none with children....and no Unicef workers would be in committed relationships either....and don't even get me started on surgeons and their long working hours! I just don't buy that at all. Gray's dating history is what it is, because of some reason other than that...his friends can put that spin on it if they want, but it doesn't fly with me.

Gray seems like a great guy, who doesn't come across as very happy, and a bit gray, edited as he is. For some reason he leaves at F4...whether he asked to go, it was mutual, or DeDe asked him to go....he is gone. If there was something there besides the physical connection and they BOTH felt it, and it was more than she was feeling with the F3, I would think he would still be there. For some reason he isn't....and if he chose to leave...he didn't see her worth fighting for, difficult "process" or not. I want Gray happy...I don't really think he is. Hopefully with viewing the show, he will have a better understanding if he has issues, what they are, and will seek help for them. I see a conflicted man with issues....and I really hope for the best for him. And thus far I am seeing Jason as a rock solid F1, DESERVEDLY SO...not default or anything else. But this is just MHO of this edited show for all participants! Thanks
Sorry for the length.
Karey

[ilovemick]

Quote: By xseannas "I think people who see the great passion between Graham and Dee are the ones falling for the editing trick, but the people who see all the red flags are going behind the edit. If Graham really wanted Dee, he would step it up and do everything he could to stay. I think after getting there he realized he wasn't up for the challenge, and it could be for a host of reasons..not being into her as much as she was in to him, not being ready for a relationship, personal/family reasons, or not wanting to take part in this crazy process."

I feel just the opposite. I think those who see the passion are going behind the edit and the ones who see red flags are falling for the editing trick.
We all know he does not make the Final 2, he has made TPTB unhappy somehow, so they are going to give him an unfavorable edit. Who knows what is said in all those clips on the floor. I know the majority of those who see red flags are the major sluethers. BUT, and I have asked this before, if we did not know that he goes home early would you still think he was not for DeAnna?