7/5 Show Discussion **NO SPOILERS**

[OneMan'sOpinion]

On ET, Tanya Douglas said that she and Jake had a relationaship after the Bachelorette. The relationahip ended before the Bachelor. Then, after Jake proposed to Vienna, he wanted to go back to Tanya. Jake appears to be the fame whore that Vienna accused him of being. Jake likely went on the Bachelor to further his "career."

There are tons of links on YouTube and google video. Wish I could link them. If you can, please do so. But she sounds very credible and to my knowledge Jake isn't denying anything.

This implies this whole thing was an act from beginning to end. I can't say too many nice things about Vienna, but when you consider she was part of a con and fraudulent marriage proposal, it's hard to not excuse her behavior postmortem. According to Tanya Douglas, she was called the day of the proposal. ET has the best interview, but there are others. I'm starting to wonder if he set up Wes as well. I'd love to see this guy get caught if he really is guilty of this stuff. Maybe even CH will grow a pair and call him out.

[CharmOffensive]

The first thing Jake said when asked by Harrison why he loved Vienna (when he proposed) was she was "supportive."

Supportive?! Very odd answer... unless Jake was looking for somebody to support his career.

If I was in love with Vienna the last thing I'd want to do after The Bachelor ended was be on Dancing With The Stars and spending most of my time with another woman... unless I was more in love with my career plan.

The inside story on Jake's plan to return to confront Wes was revealed at the time including his motivation: "America will fall in love with me."

How these narcissists like Jake and Wes and Justin think they can trick everybody forever is astounding.

P.S. Who told Pavelka he's a good actor?

[katiegirl7304]

She was upset!! Or didn't you notice. If you have never been in a controlling, emotionally abusive relationship, you would never understand how crazy-making this type of relationship is!! And yes Vienna WAS crazy during that interview, which was totally understandable considering the circumstances and what she had experienced up to that point with Jake. I mean, did you watch Jake at all, or were you focusing on Vienna the whole time? Anyone who watched Jake would have seen how controlling, and yes emotionally abusive he is. Did you see that karate chop he demonstrated while demanding Vienna to "stop interrupting me"!!! Good Lord, that was scary!! So yes of course she was emotional, and acting crazy and however else you want to label her behavior. You would be too! Jake was arrogant, smug, condescending and totally unemotional! Even Chris asked him at the end after Vienna walked out if he cared at all. I mean, this was a woman he supposedly fell in love with and proposed marriage to only a few months prior! Like Vienna said, you would NEVER have known it.

You know, I'm proud of Vienna. She stood up to him and presented his true colors to the world. That is what infuriated him. She beat him to it!! Way to go Vienna!!

I agree. She didn't let him get a word in edgewise. He would say two words and he would interrupt then had the nerve to storm off like the wounded party when he finally snapped and told her to stop interrupting him. Whatever, Vienna. He was very patient from my standpoint. I would have yelled at her a lot sooner.

[chrisg]

She was upset!! Or didn't you notice. If you have never been in a controlling, emotionally abusive relationship, you would never understand how crazy-making this type of relationship is!! And yes Vienna WAS crazy during that interview, which was totally understandable considering the circumstances and what she had experienced up to that point with Jake. I mean, did you watch Jake at all, or were you focusing on Vienna the whole time? Anyone who watched Jake would have seen how controlling, and yes emotionally abusive he is. Did you see that karate chop he demonstrated while demanding Vienna to "stop interrupting me"!!! Good Lord, that was scary!! So yes of course she was emotional, and acting crazy and however else you want to label her behavior. You would be too! Jake was arrogant, smug, condescending and totally unemotional! Even Chris asked him at the end after Vienna walked out if he cared at all. I mean, this was a woman he supposedly fell in love with and proposed marriage to only a few months prior! Like Vienna said, you would NEVER have known it.

You know, I'm proud of Vienna. She stood up to him and presented his true colors to the world. That is what infuriated him. She beat him to it!! Way to go Vienna!!

All women need to be on the lookout for the type of behavior Jake displayed to protect themselves, their daughters, mothers who are back out in the dating world, sisters, girlfriends, etc. And it doesn't only happen to women who can easily have derogatory adjectives thrown at them.

And, at the extreme, it is deadly. Annie Le was a Yale Med grad student who was allegedly murdered last year by a janitorial worker who had displayed only a small amount of verbally controlling behavior in her lab prior to the murder. It happened to a UVa student on the verge of her graduation a couple of months ago - allegedly by her boyfriend who also had not displayed huge warning signs of physcial violence but had definitely exerted controlling behavior.

This is not to suggest that Jake is capable of such violence, just that highly intelligent and accomplished women have been victims of men who had mostly only displayed early warning signs of being emotionally and verbally controlling prior to the murders.

Even if it never rises above verbal and emotional attempts to control and denigrate, that is enough to speak out about it. And no woman deserves it.

[OneMan'sOpinion]

How these narcissists like Jake and Wes and Justin think they can trick everybody forever is astounding.

Just a thought, though. The primary witness to Wes being a narcissist is Jake. Wes denied everything and his ex-girlfriend backed him up. Could Jake have simply targeted Wes as a means to get where he wanted to go? After all, it was the Wes incident that got him the gig. Tanya Douglas said Jake would walk on anyone to get where he wanted to go. Is it possible that Jake targeted him thinking his laid back attitude would make him an easy target? Could Jake have incited the others (including the show staff) to see things in Wes that weren't there? Jake said that Wes told him he had a girlfriend. Knowing what we know now, is it possible he made that up to further his own agenda?

[lurkinlady]

I was never a fan of either, and still am not, but Vienna seemed more credible to me. I could totally see how his controlling behavior made her flip out. I can imagine with all his need for respect (and it sent shivers down my side to see him with Chelsie on dwts) and his over controlled behavior that it would set off someone very emotional like Vienna.

Neither of them "won" this round, but to me Jake came off very, very badly and if nothing else a horrible judge of character to pick someone like Vienna who is so totally incompatible with him.

[ironcat]

I gather that they couldn't open the drawers in the dresser the way he had arranged the furniture, so trying another option seems sensible, not rude. I have often had a second look at things my husband has done and come up with a better alternative. Because he is not a weak narcissist of a man, he welcomes rather than resents my input, and because he respects my intelligence and problem-solving abilities, he knows that I am just using my talents and am not emasculating him.

Exactly. I thought the examples Jake gave of how Vienna undermined and emasculated him were extremely revealing, in that a normal man who was secure in his masculinity would not be so threatened by a woman questioning or double-checking his decisions, especially those of such a mundane nature. Had she also verbally belittled him with insults and ridicule, it could be construed as emasculation, but as Jake didn't mention this, I assume it wasn't the case. At best, Vienna was rude and annoying, but Jake's response to it clearly gave him away as a control freak and possible narcissist.

[BTW]

Those two didn't seem suited to each other in the first place. Could never figure why he chose her??? I am not surprised to see them not getting along. To put their breakup in the public eye now, is all one big show for publicity, for Jake and Vienna. Plus it's good for ABC, in promoting interest in The Bachelor. How can we take their actions seriously? As for the way Jake acted toward Chelsie on DWTS, there were other similar disagreements, tempers lost, among some of the other stars during the rehearsal showings. From now on, I am just inclined to switch the channel when I know they are being interviewed.

[OneMan'sOpinion]

Those two didn't seem suited to each other in the first place. Could never figure why he chose her???

Could he have chosen her because she was the least likable of all the women?? If he really was planning to return to Tanya, perhaps he figured he'd propose to the least liked girl so he could dump her with public approval. Perhaps he figured no one would side with her, nor believe anything she said. I'm really not the conspiratorial type, I don't even believe Kennedy had a second shooter, but this makes sense if Tanya's claims are credible.

[CharmOffensive]

Now that Vienna has cut the cord with Pavelka, ABC may feel bad for her like they did with Melissa Rycroft. Instead of offering Vienna a spot on Dancing With The Stars, it could offer her the role of the next Bachelorette! She's the new sympathetic female everybody feels sorry for just as Ali Fed was after she left Jake.

This would be the ultimate feminist reversal where she could be completely in control after Pavelka tried to make her his doormat.

She's vocal, blunt, controversial, and colorful enough to put some life back into the Bachelorette. She wouldn't have to be drunk all the time like Ali or as dressed down in multiple shades of black all season. She's blonde enough and slim enough to attract many bachelors or at least 25.

Vienna Girardi: The Next Bachelorette.