Molly **Spoilers**

[PDXgal]

As an editing sleuthe, I see this whole season and everybody in it as one big red flag.

I'm new to the game, but absolutely. I still trying not to get too carried away with the voiceovers are telling to me to think and what I should really be looking at.

[vintonmom]

Okay, I can't believe I am jumping into this but I can't help it.

In regards to the highlighted points specifically what may or may not be a red flag with with Melissa or Molly.

First off, I don't think it is a red-flag that friends have not met or know a lot about her parents. I don't think my parents met any my friends once I went to college. When you no longer live in their house things change. Also, if Melissa was the girl that Jason really wanted to be with, marry or whatever, it would NOT have mattered that he didn't meet them under these circumstances. I hardly think meeting one's parents for several hours on one day with a camera crew etc. around is going give you a true picture of who they really are.

Secondly, if Jason should be concerned about Melissa always being the dumpee, he should be equally or more concerned about a young woman who states that her family's approval is the most important thing and yet continues a 3yr relationship with someone she couldn't bring him home because her family hated him. Both of these girls are still relatively young and probably have dated quite a few guys, but only had one or two serious relationships and are likely still learning what/who makes the best partner.

The person who has red flags pasted all over them is Jason. He may be 32, with a son but appears to be the least mature of anyone I've seen on the show....at least that's how I see his edit and isn't that key to all of this.

well said

[cherryyou]

Okay, I can't believe I am jumping into this but I can't help it.

In regards to the highlighted points specifically what may or may not be a red flag with with Melissa or Molly.

First off, I don't think it is a red-flag that friends have not met or know a lot about her parents. I don't think my parents met any my friends once I went to college. When you no longer live in their house things change. Also, if Melissa was the girl that Jason really wanted to be with, marry or whatever, it would NOT have mattered that he didn't meet them under these circumstances. I hardly think meeting one's parents for several hours on one day with a camera crew etc. around is going give you a true picture of who they really are.

Secondly, if Jason should be concerned about Melissa always being the dumpee, he should be equally or more concerned about a young woman who states that her family's approval is the most important thing and yet continues a 3yr relationship with someone she couldn't bring him home because her family hated him. Both of these girls are still relatively young and probably have dated quite a few guys, but only had one or two serious relationships and are likely still learning what/who makes the best partner.

The person who has red flags pasted all over them is Jason. He may be 32, with a son but appears to be the least mature of anyone I've seen on the show....at least that's how I see his edit and isn't that key to all of this.

I guess I grew up in a home and with a mother who made it a point to know the people I declared to be my best friends. My parents did not meet every one of my friends but they made sure they knew who I hanged out with after school or partied with. They quietly invited them to visit our home ... had dinners with them. I just find it odd that a concerned, supposedly loving family that she seemed to picture would not bother to know who she hangs out or spends her time with. As regards Molly's 3-yr relationship with someone her parents didn't approve of, some of us do that hoping things will improve ... and the fact that she has decided to only go with someone her parents can accept that, I think, points to her learning a valuable lesson.

Interestingly, I really am not a Jason fan but I sort of like the way he has handled many of the weird situations in his season. I've heard and read RS's assertions ... I don't know what prompted him [RS] to make that big 'reveal' knowing that what he knows have not been verified. I think, it is irresponsible to perpetuate something that is just based on second-hand information even hearsay. My gut feeling is there are some truths to some stories but to outrightly condemn someone without first knowing the facts is equally despicable. We do not know what transpired ... Unfortunately, we are unlikely to hear the full story .... If Jason speaks his truths, he's likely to be more condemned than be given the benefit of the doubt. He's not likely to expose the problems with the other side ... if he does, the jury is likely to just despise him. I don't know ... I feel, either way ... he's damned. And Molly, should she just let things go to save face? I don't know the mindsets of these people going in shows like The Bachelor/Bachelorette: given the results of these shows, I would not be surprised if they subscribe to the dictum _ "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings".

[hoopsfan]

Cut to the chase....as an adult, cheating is when you have intimate relations with another person other than the one to whom you have agreed to see exclusively, whatever word you deign to call that relationship.

If Jason told Melissa he was seeing her exclusively ( whatever kind of wrapping paper you want to put around that particular box), and he was also sleeping with Molly during that time, then he was cheating.

Cheating doesn't just boil down to sex. If you're in a committed relationship (and I'm pretty certain engagement is commitment), your heart and mind need to be with the one to whom you're committed. Flirting with Molly, talking about a future with her, discussing possibilities of what could have been - that would all be cheating as well.

[bekalc]

I guess I grew up in a home and with a mother who made it a point to know the people I declared to be my best friends. My parents did not meet every one of my friends but they made sure they knew who I hanged out with after school or partied with. They quietly invited them to visit our home ... had dinners with them. I just find it odd that a concerned, supposedly loving family that she seemed to picture would not bother to know who she hangs out or spends her time with.

Maybe these weren't childhood friends, but people Mel met later in life, who are busy with their families and jobs, to have dinner at Mel's parents house...

People are posting on blogs and they are all backing up what Mel has said about their families. Someone said that they go to Mel's parents church (which suggest they are religious) and that they didn't want Melissa to go on the Bachelor in the first place Because

1. They think the Process is dishonest.. They hated the idea of 25 girls dating one guy
2. Some say They had some objections to Jason himself
3. Some say they didn't want to be on Tv.

However, they told their daughter from the beginning that if she wanted to go on the show they accept and support her BUT they would not go on the show themselves. However, if Melissa did get engaged, they'd accept her decision and be willing to meet Jason privately off camera.

As for Melissa she thought optimistically and hoped they'd change her minds if she made it to the final Four.

Apparently the family is very, very close knit, and her parents are wonderful people just old fashioned, and well they disagree with the show.

[PDXgal]

I guess I grew up in a home and with a mother who made it a point to know the people I declared to be my best friends. My parents did not meet every one of my friends but they made sure they knew who I hanged out with after school or partied with. They quietly invited them to visit our home ... had dinners with them. I just find it odd that a concerned, supposedly loving family that she seemed to picture would not bother to know who she hangs out or spends her time with. As regards Molly's 3-yr relationship with someone her parents didn't approve of, some of us do that hoping things will improve ... and the fact that she has decided to only go with someone her parents can accept that, I think, points to her learning a valuable lesson.

Interestingly, I really am not a Jason fan but I sort of like the way he has handled many of the weird situations in his season. I've heard and read RS's assertions ... I don't know what prompted him [RS] to make that big 'reveal' knowing that what he knows have not been verified. I think, it is irresponsible to perpetuate something that is just based on second-hand information even hearsay. My gut feeling is there are some truths to some stories but to outrightly condemn someone without first knowing the facts is equally despicable. We do not know what transpired ... Unfortunately, we are unlikely to hear the full story .... If Jason speaks his truths, he's likely to be more condemned than be given the benefit of the doubt. He's not likely to expose the problems with the other side ... if he does, the jury is likely to just despise him. I don't know ... I feel, either way ... he's damned. And Molly, should she just let things go to save face? I don't know the mindsets of these people going in shows like The Bachelor/Bachelorette: given the results of these shows, I would not be surprised if they subscribe to the dictum _ "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings".

Cherry--I don't disagree with this at all, I certainly dated guys my parents didn't approve of and was the dumpee more times than I care to remember before I met the "right one." It's all part of growing up, that's why neither really raises red flags to me. I was pointing out there is an argument for major red flags for both girls and Jason based on the edit they show us. I wasn't trying to bash any of them. I've read too many comments from people "flipping out" about red-flags and it just strikes me as slightly ridiculous. That's what nice about this Board, not too many bashers here (wish I had discovered it earlier, would have saved a lot of frustration )

Also, at this point, I am not buying into everything RS claims hook, line and sinker. But there appears to be some corroboration to parts of his story and also having family/friends in the Industry, I know a lot of crap like this goes on. In the end, only a hand full of people will ever know what really happened and sadly there will be 3 people and their families left to deal with all the fall-out good or bad.

[Kikora]

But what is considered intimate relations Is it okay for Jason to make out with Molly as long as he's not sleeping with her? I mean a kiss is one thing. That can happen but repeated making out?

And seriously for many women "emotional" cheating can be just as bad if not worse as the sexual relations. So for Melissa if Jason was spending repeated weekends with Molly so soon after all that drama, that's a betrayal. And the sleeping with Molly is kind of irrelevant.

Not AT ALL justifying it, but I think what you're asking is really where the show itself blurs the lines...and probably does a bit of a mind twist on the participants - turning it all into a bit of a slippery slope for post-show relationship success.

By the F3 the girls typically ALL feel like they have a real relationship with The Bachelor (TB), and he is making out (to varying extents) with each of them. It's "part of the process" (so to speak) and they all realize it going into it. And, I'm sure, going into it realize it's "not normal" but it's "how things work."

I suspect for TB they must have to do their own mental "gymnastics" to make that permissible for themselves, as, it seems from how many of them initially express some degree of reticence in their interactions, that isn't normally how they'd "do" relationship either.

Obviously on the show it's not a "committed relationship" - they're knowingly and willingly engaging in a relationship where TB is not exclusive but rather "doing" everyone (I don't mean "doing" - but varying degrees of...and I think far more than in earlier seasons, things go further both emotionally and physically with more of them than it used to).

BUT, in getting to a place where TB justifies (for his own sanity in the process) doing it - and the girls justify (for their own sanity in the process) permitting it, I suspect it gets hard to STOP that survival mechanism, especially as it becomes a "new norm" or "comfort zone" just to make it through the process.

Again, I am in NO WAY trying to justify it. If you knew me you would be SHOCKED I could even say this, as this is SO against everything I think/believe/stand for/etc. in relationships... But I could see it being hard for TB, especially at the end if they were truly torn (as J and others have professed to have been) to not continuing that justification when now they're "in relationship" by distance with the F1 AND infrequently. As in, how was it different than what they were doing, and "oh but so few understand how this process worked" sort of thing.

Of the most recent shows, I think PLO and Andy are the only ones who truly seemed to have been as (perhaps) torn as Jason professes to have been. Others have said it but their actions said otherwise. And, now, we may have a second "reuniting" - to some degree - with an F2 (as PLO did with Sadie).

I hope this makes some semblance of sense..it's way too late to be trying to say this I suspect...b/c the last thing I want to do is seem like I'm excusing it...I am NOT.

I do NOT think cheating or unfaithfulness in ANY form for any reason is right/fair/etc. But a piece of me does see how the process itself may start some form of slippery slope of permissiveness on the part of the role of TB and may make them more vulnerable to continue it post-show without very strong character and even some real proactive steps to guard against it.

[Living]

I guess I grew up in a home and with a mother who made it a point to know the people I declared to be my best friends. My parents did not meet every one of my friends but they made sure they knew who I hanged out with after school or partied with. They quietly invited them to visit our home ... had dinners with them. I just find it odd that a concerned, supposedly loving family that she seemed to picture would not bother to know who she hangs out or spends her time with. As regards Molly's 3-yr relationship with someone her parents didn't approve of, some of us do that hoping things will improve ... and the fact that she has decided to only go with someone her parents can accept that, I think, points to her learning a valuable lesson.

Interestingly, I really am not a Jason fan but I sort of like the way he has handled many of the weird situations in his season. I've heard and read RS's assertions ... I don't know what prompted him [RS] to make that big 'reveal' knowing that what he knows have not been verified. I think, it is irresponsible to perpetuate something that is just based on second-hand information even hearsay. My gut feeling is there are some truths to some stories but to outrightly condemn someone without first knowing the facts is equally despicable. We do not know what transpired ... Unfortunately, we are unlikely to hear the full story .... If Jason speaks his truths, he's likely to be more condemned than be given the benefit of the doubt. He's not likely to expose the problems with the other side ... if he does, the jury is likely to just despise him. I don't know ... I feel, either way ... he's damned. And Molly, should she just let things go to save face? I don't know the mindsets of these people going in shows like The Bachelor/Bachelorette: given the results of these shows, I would not be surprised if they subscribe to the dictum _ "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings".

I agree with this and your earlier post. I am sure Jason had to stand his ground to have Molly as Fleiss was only interested in TV. We need to remember that the contract is till, after the show finishes airing which is sometime early march. Technicalyy for tptb, the contestants including Melissa are still on contract. We know the show to start and end a way, but what if this year it has a different format whereby tb has a chance to change his mind. After all tb has been kissing and fondling many women o what difference does it make when it is now only two. It is still part of the show.

Normally after the frc tb and F1 are given about a week together the show to get to know each other more etc. Like Jesse and Deanna had. I wonder what happened this time. I do not believe Jason and Melissa had it. My guess is the camera continued rolling that day and things begun to unravel straight away. Jason wants a woman who is ready NOW to be settled and married. His concern after Deanna was whoever he chooses must be over that part of their lives. Melissa said she was and wanted to be a teacher etc with the right answers. I believe right afther the frc after she had "won" she had a change of heart alla Deanna. That is not to rush into anything etc. The show was to rush into marriage and settle down to a boring life in seatle etc. Was Melissa REALLY ready for that? I am sure traight away Jason decided to go for Molly and had to push a bit with tptb. Remember Fleiss said in an earlier interview the relationship HAD a chance to work. There were several posts concerning the meaning of this HAD but I am sure Fleiss wanted Melissa but Jason was in love with Molly and he really had to fight for her - behind the scenes of coz

[Living]

I am sorry, I did not intend to sound that way _ bashing Mel. I am just 'blunt' ... I call things the way I see it and, nowadays, this is not 'politically correct'. As regards liking Molly, to be honest, I am not fond of her either. I guess, it makes me cringe to see beautiful women parading themselves to millions of viewers in a manner so lacking in good taste .... but, I think, it is passe to expect good old-fashioned values.

I do agree with you about the 'public humiliation' part but, I think, it is too early for us to believe the worst. Anyway, this is 'reality tv', anything is possible ... and, like it or not, when these girls signed the dotted line they agreed in principle to submit themselves to do or be subjected to the unthinkable. I think what makes Stephanie such a standout is her innate sense or ability to stay within her 'comfort zone' without missing the fun and adventure. Now, she came across a bit 'corny' but, she came out of the situation with her self-respect still intact.

Yep, Stephanie, Kari and some of the earlier one's ended up looking good. Jillian as well. nothing wrong in falling in love and being rejected. she did not grovel or anything like that.

On the other hand there was a poster who said Jason, Molly and Melissa came together to talk things out. Another poster said there was an email from Melissa to Jason asking why he confirmed what he said in front of the camera etc. He confirmed his breaking it off with her before the camera. Melissa was not concerned with loosing Jason. More about the humiliation of being dumped on camera. It is horrible to be humiliated on TV but that is what ALL the contestants signed. They each knew there was a chance of a humiliation on TV. It was not up to the contestant to choose the way and method of humiliation. They signed that away. Maybe she thought she had won and the show was over but she was wrong. The show goes on. The thing is, that is what you sign up for when you agree to do the show. Until you get the ring after the airing of the show, anything is game.

[Minney]

Yep, Stephanie, Kari and some of the earlier one's ended up looking good. Jillian as well. nothing wrong in falling in love and being rejected. she did not grovel or anything like that.

On the other hand there was a poster who said Jason, Molly and Melissa came together to talk things out. Another poster said there was an email from Melissa to Jason asking why he confirmed what he said in front of the camera etc. He confirmed his breaking it off with her before the camera. Melissa was not concerned with loosing Jason. More about the humiliation of being dumped on camera. It is horrible to be humiliated on TV but that is what ALL the contestants signed. They each knew there was a chance of a humiliation on TV. It was not up to the contestant to choose the way and method of humiliation. They signed that away. Maybe she thought she had won and the show was over but she was wrong. The show goes on. The thing is, that is what you sign up for when you agree to do the show. Until you get the ring after the airing of the show, anything is game.

You've reminded me of the ATFR during Jen's/Jerry's season. While I hate to even bring her up, it appeared that she expected Jerry to confirm that in fact they had both known their relationship was not going to work out. Yet during the actual taping Jerry appeared totally blown away with the fact that she wasn't willing to attempt a relationship in the future. Pretty much threw her under the bus on tv (but many would agree she belonged there anyway!). Wonder if this will be similar?