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Thread: Body Language & Non Verbal Communication - *Spoilers*

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    Re: Body Language & Non Verbal Communication - *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by casualfan;2652460;
    Lynn7 thank you for all of your body language analysis! I was wondering if you can comment on the final 2 or final 3 ladies body language from last night? I'm thinking specifically during the dinners. It looked to me like Deanna was leaning back more and Jenni was leaning forward more. Did you see that as well?
    DeAnna struck me as guarded and cautious from the beginning. So, it would make sense that she wouldn't be as aggressive in showing her attraction. The same holds with Bettina. Jenni, on the other hand, exuded an outgoing personality from the beginning. For her, it makes sense that she wouldn't have trouble being aggressive with her expression. Now, the other side of the equation is Brad. He didn't respond as easily to Jenni as he did with DeAnna and, although there were moments with Bettina, he didn't initiate any contact with her during dinner at all.

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    Re: Body Language & Non Verbal Communication - *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn7;2652825;
    DeAnna struck me as guarded and cautious from the beginning. So, it would make sense that she wouldn't be as aggressive in showing her attraction. The same holds with Bettina. Jenni, on the other hand, exuded an outgoing personality from the beginning. For her, it makes sense that she wouldn't have trouble being aggressive with her expression. Now, the other side of the equation is Brad. He didn't respond as easily to Jenni as he did with DeAnna and, although there were moments with Bettina, he didn't initiate any contact with her during dinner at all.
    Lynn, what do you think happened between Brad & Bettina? Did you believe the reason he gave her? Judging from your analysis, did Bettina become even more guarded the whole date or it's just that Brad gave up on her? Thanks!

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    Re: Body Language & Non Verbal Communication - *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by OutsideLookinIn;2652890;
    Lynn, what do you think happened between Brad & Bettina? Did you believe the reason he gave her? Judging from your analysis, did Bettina become even more guarded the whole date or it's just that Brad gave up on her? Thanks!
    As I said earlier, "I'm floored." He gave every indication that he was, in every way, completely taken and interested in her. I said to someone in a PM that he is more complex and inconsistent, probably more than I gave him credit for. For example, on his 2:1 date with DeAnna his body language came across as questioning and doubtful, skeptical. Even the non-audible discussion was of nothing substantial. Last night he seemed completely enamoured with DeAnna. And it's not the edit either. Body language isn't something that you can edit away and it's even more difficult to change your body language unless you notice tendancies with yourself and make a concerted effort to change it. For example, if you bite your nails when you're nervous or intimidated it's hard to stop it but it can be done with effort.

    I had another discussion, via PM, and there was an interesting question that was brought up about actors and who did I think was very good at portraying a believable body language for their parts. Very talented actors have the ability to impersonate certain types of body language (think of the movie Ray with Jamie Foxx-even Ray's son had to do double takes watching the movie). I would never even to begin to say that Brad is a good actor, for all I know he's never even so much as participated in a high school play, but we do know that he watched all of the prior seasons of the bachelor so, if anything, he might be very careful about concealing his expressions or tendancies. Having said that, when he is caught off guard, or extremely comfortable, his true expressions are loud and clear. That is the part that has me stumped because those are the moments that I'm watching very closely. In fact, there was a moment where it appears that he is saying something wonderful about Jenni, and for someone not looking closely you probably wouldn't have caught it, but his lips/jaw aren't even moving when he 'appears' to have said it, even Jenni fans pointed to that comment as proof of his love for her, but I caught it because of the 'moment' that I was watching closely.

    With the HTD, even with the bad edit, and the questionable behaviour of the 'evil' HA! step mother (couldn't resist), on the steps of the monument he expressed so many varying emotions, some positive and some not, that I knew he would keep Bettina.

    On the FD his body language, for the most part, other than the initial big hug, was not good at all. At times it screamed, "I'm not feeling this and I'm going through the motions." I saw Bettina as guarded at times during dinner, as was he, but I think she sensed the change in him and retreated a bit. There were moments where they seemed relaxed but, for the most part, he just didn't initiate anything with her, other than the lame kiss in the hot tub. It's interesting watching that date again because in the clips and previews that we were shown throughout the season they were shown as far more intimate and loving together and, yet, what we were shown, were the somewhat awkward and disinterested clips...chop chop chop. It makes me wonder just how much of a shock it was to Bettina that he sent her home. Note to self: Never again interpret previews. It was a first for me this year and this is the first year I was wrong for F1...go figure!!

    I'm sorry this is so long winded. I generally say too little and just assume that people know what I'm talking about so I thought I'd try to be as thorough as possible

    No, I didn't completely believe his goodbye explanation. There was some expression of honesty but there were also other indications that led me to believe that there was more to it. For example, he tells her that this will haunt him for the rest of his life; that he's thought about her all day, etc., they are holding hands but his is open, not even gripping hers (it's what I call a wet fish hand hold), he scratches at his eyebrow while looking down and away from her, which he has done when he's, how do I explain it, done with a woman, had enough, has no further emotional attachment. That kind of expression normally reads as cold and unfeeling, if that makes sense. So, it reads as a contradiction to me. He's saying one thing but expressing another with his face and body. With all of the things that he has said to her (ie: I really enjoyed our talk yesterday) how can he say that he didn't feel like he knew the real her? It's just a complete contradiction.

    I think, in all likelihood, the HTD wasn't good, which we know, and he was in a quandry after it. He probably wanted more time with her to see if they could move beyond it and grow more together but he must have realized that he couldn't deal with the disapproving family and, decision made, he closed off. He doesn't strike me as the egomaniac that some are painting him as but I can see how his decision could be misinterpreted that way. What did he say about being patient with her two shows ago? Patience is a virtue and I, er, don't thinks he's very virtuous...LOL

    Incidentally, I don't know whether or not anyone cares, but, after he walks Bettina out Jenni says, "yes!" then winks at DeAnna. I wonder what that was all about.

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    Re: Body Language & Non Verbal Communication - *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn7;2653517;
    In fact, there was a moment where it appears that he is saying something wonderful about Jenni, and for someone not looking closely you probably wouldn't have caught it, but his lips/jaw aren't even moving when he 'appears' to have said it, even Jenni fans pointed to that comment as proof of his love for her, but I caught it because of the 'moment' that I was watching closely.

    Incidentally, I don't know whether or not anyone cares, but, after he walks Bettina out Jenni says, "yes!" then winks at DeAnna. I wonder what that was all about.
    Which line was the Jenni one?

    I saw her say something, but I didn't know what it was. Thanks for the help

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    Re: Body Language & Non Verbal Communication - *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by catn3d;2653527;
    Which line was the Jenni one?

    I saw her say something, but I didn't know what it was. Thanks for the help
    Ha! I wondered if someone would ask me that.

    This is the scene on the HTD:
    Jenni: I want you to know that if it is me that you fall in love with, and it is me that you want to be with for the rest of your life, I want you to know that I would be in it for you (Brad looks away then back to Jenni) for like a million percent.
    Brad: (they aren't showing his lips or his face) I know a good relationship takes compromise (shot of them holding hands then staring at each other no jaw movement) and I'm definitely willing to compromise (look at his jaw, no movement while saying compromise, try saying that word without your jaw moving, so it would be very obvious if he was saying it-he says something briefly, like a slight 'okay?'), chop chop splice (back to shot of Brad) as long as you're okay with it I'm okay with it, I'm telling you.
    Jenni: Thank you.

    Then it goes to the PI of Brad saying, "...If it's true love, if it's actually true love..."

    ETA: I might have misunderstood what you were asking. At the last RC, while Brad is walking Bettina out to the kiss and cry area...LOL...there is a shot of Jenni saying, "yes!" as in she's finally gone and then she winks at DeAnna...it screamed of comraderie...if that makes any sense?

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    Re: Body Language & Non Verbal Communication - *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn7;2653517;
    No, I didn't completely believe his goodbye explanation. There was some expression of honesty but there were also other indications that led me to believe that there was more to it. For example, he tells her that this will haunt him for the rest of his life; that he's thought about her all day, etc., they are holding hands but his is open, not even gripping hers (it's what I call a wet fish hand hold), he scratches at his eyebrow while looking down and away from her, which he has done when he's, how do I explain it, done with a woman, had enough, has no further emotional attachment. That kind of expression normally reads as cold and unfeeling, if that makes sense. So, it reads as a contradiction to me. He's saying one thing but expressing another with his face and body. With all of the things that he has said to her (ie: I really enjoyed our talk yesterday) how can he say that he didn't feel like he knew the real her? It's just a complete contradiction.

    I think, in all likelihood, the HTD wasn't good, which we know, and he was in a quandry after it. He probably wanted more time with her to see if they could move beyond it and grow more together but he must have realized that he couldn't deal with the disapproving family and, decision made, he closed off. He doesn't strike me as the egomaniac that some are painting him as but I can see how his decision could be misinterpreted that way. What did he say about being patient with her two shows ago? Patience is a virtue and I, er, don't thinks he's very virtuous...LOL
    I believed it to an extent because Bettina has been a mystery to me. She is a study in contradictions ... a chameleon. She could barely converse on their one-on-one, yet at the improv she had hollered out, Brad I love you. She said she was scared, but she previously talked about wanting his hands on her, being intimate, physical, etc. ( her Father has to be absolutely enraged watching this show. ) And the paper comment at the end of the HTD meant what ? It was incomprehensible to me. She was quite judgemental, so who knows what she said that we didn't see. I think many people were confused with Bettina, and attributed it to editing and Fleiss trying to fool us ... but the editors could only work with what they had. I had been calling her Hillary lite. think she has some problems, possibly by-products of living with judgemental control freaks.

    Incidentally, I don't know whether or not anyone cares, but, after he walks Bettina out Jenni says, "yes!" then winks at DeAnna. I wonder what that was all about.
    You are better at the lip reading, but I thought Jenni said "Hey !" and then smiled. These girls haven't spent any time together except at the RC's since before the HT dates, so I thought it was just a greeting. We didn't get to see DeAnna full on or for very long, so her response is unclear.
    Last edited by echo226; 11-07-2007 at 04:13 AM.
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    Re: Body Language & Non Verbal Communication - *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by echo226;2653564;
    I believed it to an extent because Bettina has been a mystery to me. She is a study in contradictions ... a chameleon. She could barely converse on their one-on-one, yet at the improv she had hollered out, Brad I love you. She said she was scared, but she previously talked about wanting his hands on her, being intimate, physical, etc. ( her Father has to be absolutely enraged watching this show. ) And the paper comment at the end of the HTD meant what ? It was incomprehensible to me. She was quite judgemental, so who knows what she said that we didn't see. I think many people were confused with Bettina, and attributed it to editing and Fleiss trying to fool us ... but the editors could only work with what they had. I had been calling her Hillary lite. think she has some problems, possibly by-products of living with judgemental control freaks.

    You are better at the lip reading, but I thought Jenni said "Hey !" and then smiled. These girls haven't spent any time together except at the RC's since before the HT dates, so I thought it was just a greeting. We didn't get to see DeAnna full on or for very long, so her response is unclear.
    I would agree with that if I interpreted the edit, but I don't. I literally am looking at the physical and facial interaction only, whether they are saying anything verbally or not, and I watch that too. I think the edit does sway viewers. There was just too much between them, spliced and diced as it was, that it was unmistakable for me. Something obviously took place between the HTD and the FD RC that led Brad to believe that there was something insurrmountable for him to continue and I just don't buy that it was simply that he didn't feel he knew the real her. That is such a broad and generalized statement in a way. How can he think that he really knows any of the women at such an early stage of their respective relationships? I've known people for 14 plus years that have surprised me on occasion. People that I thought I knew.

    And, yes, Jenni does say, "yes!" at the RC.

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    Re: Body Language & Non Verbal Communication - *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn7;2653568;
    I would agree with that if I interpreted the edit, but I don't. I literally am looking at the physical and facial interaction only, whether they are saying anything verbally or not, and I watch that too. I think the edit does sway viewers. There was just too much between them, spliced and diced as it was, that it was unmistakable for me. Something obviously took place between the HTD and the FD RC that led Brad to believe that there was something insurmountable for him to continue and I just don't buy that it was simply that he didn't feel he knew the real her. That is such a broad and generalized statement in a way. How can he think that he really knows any of the women at such an early stage of their respective relationships? I've known people for 14 plus years that have surprised me on occasion. People that I thought I knew.

    And, yes, Jenni does say, "yes!" at the RC.

    I understand, but the body language and facial expressions are chopped and edited too, along with the verbals and I was just suggesting that what they put together may have been confusing from your perspective as well.

    Could it be that he did like her very much and wanted a chance for her to be the one ... but she just didn't rise to the opportunity ? You are the expert at reading the non-verbals but he is not and wanted people to put it out there verbally. He obviously isn't as skilled as you are at reading the signs and also may have felt that would be "working too hard".

    Thanks for the clarification on the "Hey" v. "Yes" . As to what it means, Deanna and Jenni have been nice to each other so maybe it was acknowledgement that the 2 best are last ? Kind of "Yay, team. "
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    Re: Body Language & Non Verbal Communication - *Spoilers*

    Quote Originally Posted by echo226;2653581;
    I understand, but the body language and facial expressions are chopped and edited too, along with the verbals and I was just suggesting that what they put together may have been confusing from your perspective as well.

    Could it be that he did like her very much and wanted a chance for her to be the one ... but she just didn't rise to the opportunity ? You are the expert at reading the non-verbals but he is not and wanted people to put it out there verbally. He obviously isn't as skilled as you are at reading the signs and also may have felt that would be "working too hard".

    Thanks for the clarification on the "Hey" v. "Yes" . As to what it means, Deanna and Jenni have been nice to each other so maybe it was acknowledgement that the 2 best are last ? Kind of "Yay, team. "

    LOL..."Yay team," ROFL Too funny!

    I think that you are right, that he wanted the chance for it to be her and he was completely let down when he realized that the perfect picture, are you real, etc., was not perfect afterall and, almost overnight, he just dismissed her. Interesting take on his personality for sure.

    Personally speaking, from someone who has worked in a bar when I was younger, you *have* to be able to read people. For example, will this person walk out on their tab? Has this person had too much to drink? Is there a fight about the break out? I think Brad is capable of reading people, even if it's on a remedial basis. The fact that he had indicated surprise with some of the women's responses to his questions really, well, I don't believe he is that daft.

    Yes, the edit comes across as choppy for me but it doesn't change the fact that the body language is still there. You might be able to use a particular facial expression as a preview clip but that doesn't mean that this was a facial expression in the context of the discussion. I don't know how to explain it but I'll try. I notice the old chop chop but I watch what is really being said between he and the women before and after the chop. For example, I'll be watching closely to a particular conversation and I'll be expecting a response to flow from that conversation and then it's a, "huh?" from me. Then I'll rewind it to watch what is really going on. Keep in mind that not every scene is *completely* edited so, most of the time, all I need is that one scene with continuity to get what is going on. It may only be 10 seconds but 1 second is akin to 'a picture is worth a thousand words' in my world.

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    Re: Body Language & Non Verbal Communication - *Spoilers*

    I worked in a bar too and left the reading to the bouncers.

    I do understand, and as said, was just suggesting some reasons why you might have been pushed off track. Your post read to me as if you just read a book and were disappointed that you were really misled by the text when you got to the end. I was commiserating and sharing your pain. Yay team
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