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Thread: A social experiment we already know the answer

  1. #21
    Anarchist AJane's Avatar
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    Oh, no, k1w1, you don't really think Kid Rock is good-looking do you?

    Actually, some of the "beautiful people" do hook up with the "average". One example that comes immediately to mind is Julia Roberts - didn't she marry a cameraman? (I have no idea what the guy looks like, mind you.) Come to think of it, she was married to Lyle Lovett as well...it's not too likely she married him for his looks.

    If Melana was a different sort of person, I don't think there would be so much debate in this vein. She's a perky blond cheerleader - one thinks that if this was high school she would be dating someone on the football team, not the president of the chess club. If the network had chosen someone else for this show - say an attractive woman with a more down-to-earth career (office manager, nurse, whatever) we might be more sympathetic with the choices she made, even if they were identical to Melana's.
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  2. #22
    FORT Fogey psucashcow's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=averagejane]Oh, no, k1w1, you don't really think Kid Rock is good-looking do you?

    Actually, some of the "beautiful people" do hook up with the "average". One example that comes immediately to mind is Julia Roberts - didn't she marry a cameraman? (I have no idea what the guy looks like, mind you.) Come to think of it, she was married to Lyle Lovett as well...it's not too likely she married him for his looks.


    I've seen pictures of Danny Moder?(Julia Roberts' husband)..he is good looking..Lyle Lovett would be an example of some other basis for her attraction, but then she didn't actually live with him very long, did she?
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  3. #23
    FORT Fanatic k1w1's Avatar
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    As for the Julia Roberts comments. I don't disagree with you guys but still her example does prove my point.... even tho physically-wise, Lyle Lovett is on the "average" side than who we would expect of move stars to get into an intimate relationship with, Mr Lovett is in ALOT of ways NO ordinary "average joe" either.... his status and wealth for instance is above probably above 90 percent of the population of the world! And that's what probably attracted Julia as well...... right?

    Again granted Melana is NO movie star.... but the fact she chose Zach/ Adam before the arrival of the "new guys" and the fact that she seems to be alot more interested in the "new guys" after their arrival only confirms what we know. She's doing what any woman would do- finding the best possible mate for her future.

    PS to some folks Kid Rock is "Brad Pitt" to others not so..... it's the eye of the beholder...... Pam Anderson thinks so, so who am I or you to argue?

  4. #24
    FORT Fogey wendiness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1w1
    Again granted Melana is NO movie star.... but the fact she chose Zach/ Adam before the arrival of the "new guys" and the fact that she seems to be alot more interested in the "new guys" after their arrival only confirms what we know. She's doing what any woman would do- finding the best possible mate for her future.
    Now, you've hit on what would have made the show interesting: They could have had guys who were not hunks but all had high power, high paying careers, then, as a twist, thrown in hunks who had low ambition or low-paying, dead-end jobs. What sparked my comment was your comment about doing what any woman would do - find the best possible mate for her future.

    Although women may be attracted to the hunks as dates, when they're looking for a lasting relationship, they go for the guy who has a solid career. Does this sound shallow? Well, we can't help it any more than men are attracted to healthy, young, pretty women. We're just built this way. It goes back to our cave-man days. Men sought out women who could produce the healthiest offspring, assuring their genetic material would carry on. And women sought out the best provider (hunter/protector) to assure the children would survive. In today's society, the hunter/protector is now the man who has a solid career. If he's in a power position, even better. Women get flack all the time about being gold-diggers but it's really no different than men responding to the young pretties. I also saw a study somewhere that revealed that most women weren't actually all after the billionaire and his yacht but said they would be very happy with someone with a solid middle-class income. In other words, women weren't likely to get all that excited about a hamburger-flipper.

    Oh, I'm not saying this well at all, but I hope you get my drift. Having a set up as mentioned above (non-hunks with solid stable careers), pitted against hunks who are un-motivated and maybe even unemployed, should produce a greater interest in the former (if she is indeed interested in finding Mr. Right). Of course, this is all moot since I don't believe for a moment that Melana nor any of the other reality show participants are really looking for that end result anyway.

    I'd be curious to know how you all feel about this.

  5. #25
    I've yada yada'd sex Christine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1w1
    As for the Julia Roberts comments. I don't disagree with you guys but still her example does prove my point.... even tho physically-wise, Lyle Lovett is on the "average" side than who we would expect of move stars to get into an intimate relationship with, Mr Lovett is in ALOT of ways NO ordinary "average joe" either.... his status and wealth for instance is above probably above 90 percent of the population of the world! And that's what probably attracted Julia as well...... right?
    Now you've completely changed your original argument about physical attraction. Lyle Lovett is not on the average side physical wise. He is unattractive by any North American standard of physical beauty.

    There is no way to disentangle wealth and power from "personality"
    since your personality traits would be affected by and/or responsible for your wealth and power. Is it shallow to be attracted to wealth and power versus kindness and a sense of humor (for instance)? You could make an argument for that. But that is not the topic of discussion here nor the theme of the show.

    The theme of the show is looks vs personality. If you believe that wealth and power are more appealing to Melana than physical beauty then she would be sure to pick one of the so-called Average Joes. The hunks are waiters in their late 20s. Some of the Average Joes are well-travelled PhDs, well-travelled rock singers (not stars yet, but who knows!) and have a lot more potential for a successful life than the mimbos. I think if Melana picks one of the hunks it is because she is a bimbo herself and not because of any inherent propensity for women to choose men who are as good looking as they are.

    I guarantee you that Tareq will attract and keep more physically attractive women than someone like Alex who's already been shown to have women troubles you would expect from a physically unattractive geek.

  6. #26
    Anarchist AJane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendiness
    Now, you've hit on what would have made the show interesting: They could have had guys who were not hunks but all had high power, high paying careers, then, as a twist, thrown in hunks who had low ambition or low-paying, dead-end jobs. What sparked my comment was your comment about doing what any woman would do - find the best possible mate for her future.

    I also saw a study somewhere that revealed that most women weren't actually all after the billionaire and his yacht but said they would be very happy with someone with a solid middle-class income. In other words, women weren't likely to get all that excited about a hamburger-flipper.

    I'd be curious to know how you all feel about this.
    This pretty much IS the case with Average Joe. Most of the Joes (not all, but the ones remaining) do have real careers. The hunks are waiters and wanna-be's. And like I said before, we women know the keepers from the disposables. Melana's choice will show whether she is currently looking for a date or a soulmate.
    All my life, I have felt destiny tugging at my sleeve.~ Thursday Next
    I don't want to "go with the flow". The flow just washes you down the drain. I want to fight the flow.- Henry Rollins
    All this spiritual talk is great and everything...but at the end of the day, there's nothing like a pair of skinny jeans. - Jillian Michaels

  7. #27
    FORT Fogey wendiness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christine
    I think if Melana picks one of the hunks it is because she is a bimbo herself and not because of any inherent propensity for women to choose men who are as good looking as they are.

    I guarantee you that Tareq will attract and keep more physically attractive women than someone like Alex who's already been shown to have women troubles you would expect from a physically unattractive geek.
    I think if Melana picks one of the hunks it is because (a) she's not really looking for a life-long relationship, just some eye candy or (b) she's hung up on looks.

    I think there are plenty of examples of very attractive women who marry men that aren't classically handsome. And I think you'll find, in those examples, the men are financially very stable and/or have high-powered jobs (and are kind, sensitive and good dad material). But the point is, many attractive women marry men who are not their "attractiveness equal" because they follow their natural instinct. Yeah, there are those who marry a hunk who has little inner substance but those are the ones who are also likely to be materialistic and place too much value on looks.

    On the other hand, I think you rarely find a true hunk marrying an average or less-than-average woman. Again, it all goes back to our natural instinct.

    Now that I'm older, I look around and find those women who selected the less-than-handsome but stable guys and think "smart cookie".

    This show is mis-titled anyway. Only a few of the "Average Joe's" truly are/were. Some were total buffoons, jerks or egotists. I think the criteria should have been: average in looks, kind, stable, ambitious, and sweet. But we all know this was done for entertianment and not as a social experiment so, of course, they threw in some guys who never stood a chance just for the humor factor.

  8. #28
    FORT Fanatic k1w1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christine
    Now you've completely changed your original argument about physical attraction. Lyle Lovett is not on the average side physical wise. He is unattractive by any North American standard of physical beauty.

    There is no way to disentangle wealth and power from "personality"
    since your personality traits would be affected by and/or responsible for your wealth and power. Is it shallow to be attracted to wealth and power versus kindness and a sense of humor (for instance)? You could make an argument for that. But that is not the topic of discussion here nor the theme of the show.

    The theme of the show is looks vs personality. If you believe that wealth and power are more appealing to Melana than physical beauty then she would be sure to pick one of the so-called Average Joes. The hunks are waiters in their late 20s. Some of the Average Joes are well-travelled PhDs, well-travelled rock singers (not stars yet, but who knows!) and have a lot more potential for a successful life than the mimbos. I think if Melana picks one of the hunks it is because she is a bimbo herself and not because of any inherent propensity for women to choose men who are as good looking as they are.

    I guarantee you that Tareq will attract and keep more physically attractive women than someone like Alex who's already been shown to have women troubles you would expect from a physically unattractive geek.
    Christine, first off thanks for your input. But it seems to me that you and alot of people who "argue" with me makes the same points, just that perhaps we're coming from many different approaches to the issue which made it "looked" like we're on different sides.

    Look, I don't deny the show is about looks vs personality..... what I've been saying all along is that under the circumstances of the show- the choice of the bachelorette- Mel, the choices of the suitors- the (below-) average joes, the choices of the unexpected twist- the 3 hunks (or above-average joes) DOES NOT promote the kind of show we were soooo expecting in the first place- the show that we thought was about a "competition" (if you will) between looks and personality..... that was supposed to be the premise of the show. BUT so far and from the looks of it, it couldn't be done..... in fact it was set to doom.... the fact that Mel chose Zach (ie forget about what kind of personality that Zach has for a sec and focus on the fact that she wants to get to know him ALOT more than say Craig, who is (to put it bluntly) fat and ugly) tells us that we couldn't possibly know what kind of "personaltiy" that Craig has..... or Dennis or Tareq, so on and so forth..... right?

    The fact of the matter is we ALREADY know the answer- Mel HAS CHOSEN looks over personality...... we can break out the champaign and put on our party hats...... "Looks" won!

    Notice the people who are left- Adam, Zach, Jason and Mike..... is it any coincidence that she has chosen guys who we, as viewers, consider to be the top "best looking" guys of all the suitors of the show, including both the originals and the new? There is just no denying the fact that Adam and Zach, in particular, are two of the best looking of the original pool! Need I say more for the "new hunks"? How could "personality" compete?

    Are you telling me that we really have a competition between the "average joes", ie Adam and Zach versus the "hunks", ie Jason and Michael? No way! "Looks" at the this point of the game is a non-issue..... Mel has clearly chosen the best looking bunch possible from the pool and if we were still going to be naive enough to believe some fairytale frog meets princess story that NBC has set up for us to buy into then we MUST be less-intelligent than we think we are! Wouldn't you think so?

    And I'm sure Tareq will do fine in the future. It's surprising how he's so young being so sophisticated and mature for his age..... I'm sure you're quite correct about him.

  9. #29
    FORT Fanatic k1w1's Avatar
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    This show is mis-titled anyway. Only a few of the "Average Joe's" truly are/were. Some were total buffoons, jerks or egotists. I think the criteria should have been: average in looks, kind, stable, ambitious, and sweet. But we all know this was done for entertianment and not as a social experiment so, of course, they threw in some guys who never stood a chance just for the humor factor.
    That is exactly it. The show is problematic right from the title.... Does that mean it is a "bad" show? I don't know, some people might find it appealing, others don't. Speaking of which I want to make it clear that I never said to boycott the show or anything in that nature.... I only offered my opinion(s) on it. Nothing more nothing less.

    Anyway,
    Although women may be attracted to the hunks as dates, when they're looking for a lasting relationship, they go for the guy who has a solid career. Does this sound shallow? Well, we can't help it any more than men are attracted to healthy, young, pretty women. We're just built this way. It goes back to our cave-man days. Men sought out women who could produce the healthiest offspring, assuring their genetic material would carry on. And women sought out the best provider (hunter/protector) to assure the children would survive. In today's society, the hunter/protector is now the man who has a solid career. If he's in a power position, even better. Women get flack all the time about being gold-diggers but it's really no different than men responding to the young pretties. I also saw a study somewhere that revealed that most women weren't actually all after the billionaire and his yacht but said they would be very happy with someone with a solid middle-class income. In other words, women weren't likely to get all that excited about a hamburger-flipper.

    Oh, I'm not saying this well at all, but I hope you get my drift. Having a set up as mentioned above (non-hunks with solid stable careers), pitted against hunks who are un-motivated and maybe even unemployed, should produce a greater interest in the former (if she is indeed interested in finding Mr. Right). Of course, this is all moot since I don't believe for a moment that Melana nor any of the other reality show participants are really looking for that end result anyway.

    I'd be curious to know how you all feel about this.
    Well, how I feel is pretty much what you feel as well.... altho in Melana's case, I don't really buy into the stories of hunks having "bad jobs" versus non-hunks having "better jobs" mumble jumbo.... to me I think having a solid career or not has nothing (perhaps rarely) to do with how one "looks".... that belongs to the pile of cr*p along with the "frog meets princess tale" that NBC wants us to believe in.

    The fact that the show was so stricted right from the beginning, from the suitor selection (a conscious attempt to get either very "ugly" guys or very "handsome" hunks) to how the game was played (the eliminations and twists) shows how difficult (even impossible) it is to find any answers that this show tries to ask- looks or personality when it comes to romance?

    Yet what I'm appauled by and have trouble with this show is the fact that those who run it don't have the participant's best interests in mind, not even one bit! Afterall the show is supposed to be about "finding love/ romance"...... nothing complicated really, right? But they have to throw in these sometimes absurd obstacles and "twists" and turns that for one thing, some folks are getting hurt emotionally for nothing..... it was not necessary. Why did John got all worked up for Mel only to get crushed by her inevitably? Or for him to be teased by Zach the bully in the beginning of the season? And what about Mel herself? I'm sure she was looking for love just as the suitors were but it's hard when the producers thought it was cute to throw in a twist or two for the fun of it.... How could any "romance" blossom under these circumstances? It's insane!

    Anyway, you want to know how I feel... there you go

  10. #30
    Premium Member Bumpkin's Avatar
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    Whew. I'm worn out after reading all that.

    The appeal of reality TV (IMHO) is that it is, at its essense, a grand social experiment. Lengthy discussions about the validity of the premise seems as fruitful as arguing about which came first, the chicken or the egg.

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