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Thread: Just a side note on Melena's conversation with Zach.

  1. #51
    FORT Newbie
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    Aug 2003
    Quote Originally Posted by Gypsy Rose
    Not trying to start a big fight, because I know this isn't what you BELIEVE, but I just find this sort of thinking very dangerous. Feeling entitled to "impose" your culture because you feel it's being threatened? Isn't THIS exactly the kind of thinking that escalated into Nazi Germany?

    Ok there was a lot I want to respond to, but I just have to say something about the above quote. I am still in shock someone could say anything like that, but my point is this statement is grossly incorrect. First of all Jews impose their culture on no one. Unlike in Christianity where missions are the norm, and converting as many believers to the fact is in fact a huge part of the religion, Judaism is just the opposite. If you want to convert the Rabbi must turn you away 3 times, and then it is a very long process to actually get converted. Judaism does not allow going and seeking converts or even trying to convince people of converting. In truth how Christianity has spread has been largely by forcing or coercing people into it. It may not be as much like that anymore but you only need to look at history to know thatís how it started. Ok now you have incorrectly stated what caused the escalation in Nazi Germany. Hitler was NOT trying to impose a CULTURE on anyone. He was trying to kill every person who was different then what he thought the perfect RACE should be. But mainly what caused the escalation was the rampant Anti Semitism which was also the base of Hitlerís views. But mainly it was the ant Semitism of the people who believed the crazy myths about the Jews. They were all wealthy, cheap, took jobs from non Jews, were running the world (Which by the way how do people still think that??? There are hardly anywhere near enough of us to run the world) But anyways my point is there have always been these crazy misconceptions about Jews. So the truth is Hitler was about race and about not wanting to share the same world with anyone who he considered inferior. He was beyond evil, there is no word to truly describe the horror he inflicted. Now to put that into the same group as someone wanting their culture and beliefs that are 6000 years old to be preserved in their own family, that is preposterous. Judaism is perhaps the culture that imposes its culture the least on those outside the religion. Like I said Judaism is almost 6000 years old, it was the first religion to believe in one G-d. Blessings that we say on holidays, traditions we bring into our home are thing that our ancestors did thousand of years ago. To want to make sure that future generations do not loose this heritage is as opposite of Hitler as you can get. Hitler tried to take it away but he didnít succeed. As many times as the world has tried to get rid of the Jewish religion and those who practices it, it has survived. To now watch it slowly but surely begin to fade, by our own means, simply saddens me. As I think it should non Jews too, because all other major religions formed after and from Judaism. In fact our ancient rituals were more then likely preformed by your ancestors too. I am not trying to get rid of any other religion, I do not look down on anyone with a different religion, I have NO problem being close friends with others of different religions, but I do have a problem with bringing in a different religion into my family. Surely you can see how different this is then what Hitler did. I personally think also that there is a difference between a Christian mother and a Jewish mother who want their children to marry inside the religion. While I donít think either is wrong, people should understand like I have been explaining that the motive is very different. I can not stress enough how much the Holocaust and rightly so has impacted the current population and will continue to impact future generation of Jews. Unlike most of you who learned about the Holocaust in school, I and most others who are Jewish simply have always known it. It is something you understand from a very young age. And many of our parents were or raised by Holocaust survivors or were survivors themselves. This is another huge impact. My father was raised by a dad who personally lived through it. My dad was born just 8 years after the war ended. My motherís family did not need to hide during the war like my fatherís family did, but none the less, until the day my Motherís mom died 45 years after the war ended, she was still convinced one day the Holocaust would happen again and was just waiting for the knock on the door. I know I am going on about this but I just want people to understand where people like Zachís mom, my mom, me and many others are coming from. It is not about hate or not wanting to associate with others of different religions. It is being proud that we are still alive, and proud that we are free to continue on with what so many have tried to get us to stop. It is about not letting what Hitler wanted happen, for the Jews and the Jewish religion to just disappear into history. I will never see anything wrong with this view, and only hope others can understand too, and that we could all live in peace while still having distinct separate religions. Yeah I know it sounds corny, but I hope one day it happens. Thanks for letting me share!

  2. #52
    Gypsy Rose
    First of all Jews impose their culture on no one.
    Oh no, toshncali, I absolutely agree. I was responding to statements like

    The fact that Catholicism isn't a threatened, fading cultural institution is enough NOT to justify the mother's beliefs if she was with the catholic faith. There is no justification at all for her narrow-minded views of instilling her own cultural values on somebody else when that very culture/ religion is as solid and expanding as ever or not at all threatened to perish.
    Judism is not just a religious insitution like the catholic church, it is as much a cultural phenomenon as being french, korean or american. And the fact that this "benign culture" is threatened of its existence day by day tells us we or at least the practioners need to do something to save it....

    Catholics numbering in the billions don't need to worry about that problem.
    ..... the mere act of favoring or imposing some belief system on to someone is not right. But if there is a good justification or a good explanation behind that kind of "imposing" behaviour (ie because the Jewish culture is threatened of its existence) then I don't see any problems with it.
    Yes, that line of thinking does trouble me greatly. But (back to quoting you, again)
    . [Hitler] was beyond evil, there is no word to truly describe the horror he inflicted. Now to put that into the same group as someone wanting their culture and beliefs that are 6000 years old to be preserved in their own family, that is preposterous.
    Please please do not misunderstand me. That's not at ALL what I was saying. I absolutely understand what you're saying on this point, and totally agree that ANYONE should have the right to cherish and want to protect beliefs and customs they hold dear.

    However, this very natural and basic instinct should NOT just be limited to those whose beliefs and customs are endangered somehow. That was my point to k1w1.

    My (loose) parallel with Hitler was merely pointing out that the fact that one group feels threatened by another doesn't give them the right to superimpose their interests or beliefs. In addition, inferring that the "strong" or majority group should, to even the playing field, LOSE some of their rights makes no sense at all.

    However, I'm sure you and I would both agree that both of those examples are a far far cry from the actual query posed by Melsevene---whether a mama (of ANY race or religion) should even have the right to prefer her children to marry within their culture.

    My belief is that, yes, no matter the race or religion, I think this is only a natural .

    Now, say the Jewish son marries a black girl, or a Christian girl, and the mama turns her back on both of them, blah blah blah...then that intensity of not just "preference" but conviction would seem to cross the line into bigotry.

    I'm sorry that my post upset you, and I hope that you take it, now, as a misunderstanding, because I really believe it was.
    Last edited by Gypsy Rose; 12-07-2003 at 12:17 AM.

  3. #53
    enough of this already! all the guy said is that his mother would rather he marry in his religion, nothing about turning her back on him, nothing derogatory or demeaning to any other race or religion. why all the to-do?
    for pete's sake, all our parents would prefer we stay within our cultural backgrounds, but love is love, happiness is happiness, and i think most families want their offspring to be happy and hope the person their son or daughter picks is, first, a good person. if so, all the rest will follow.

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