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Thread: Just a side note on Melena's conversation with Zach.

  1. #31
    daydream believer oneTVslave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bojado71
    I feel it is terrible how you have brought this post off topic. An apology from you to the group is in order.
    What the...??? I hope you are joking.

    While it is true that this thread has wandered away from Melena and Zach's conversation, I feel that a discussion about the romantic compatibility of people from different faiths is somewhat relevant. Regardless, it has been very interesting and enlightening to hear the different viewpoints and the discussion that evolved from the original poster's question. Hardly "terrible" and warranting an apology. I believe it is the job of the moderators to determine when a thread has advanced to being so off-topic that it is detrimental to this board.
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  2. #32
    FORT Fogey lambikins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneTVslave
    What the...??? I hope you are joking.

    While it is true that this thread has wandered away from Melena and Zach's conversation, I feel that a discussion about the romantic compatibility of people from different faiths is somewhat relevant. Regardless, it has been very interesting and enlightening to hear the different viewpoints and the discussion that evolved from the original poster's question. Hardly "terrible" and warranting an apology. I believe it is the job of the moderators to determine when a thread has advanced to being so off-topic that it is detrimental to this board.
    Here-Here! Bridging the gap of non-knowledge (ignorance) results in better understanding and empathy for all involved. I found nothing insulting, terrible, or disrespectful about this thread. I have left "famous" message boards because of their Iron Fisted approach to staying within the Topic, and not allowing a natural growth and development.

    To echo oneTVslave: "I believe is is the job of the moderators to determine when a thread has advanced to being so off-topic that it is deterimental to this board."

    I am going to believe that this is either a troll or a wry wit who wrote the initial post.

  3. #33
    FORT Fanatic k1w1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italian Idol
    I don't know if any of you caught the conversation that Melena had with Zach about Zach's mother wanting him to marry a Jewish girl. Now, I'm not Jewish and I don't see why he would need to conform with the rules laid out by his mother. My mother or father never told me that I have to marry an Italian girl and in fact I didn't. Which leads me to the point of this thread. He also mentioned that being Jewish would not allow him to participate in a Christmas Celebration. This being Melena's favorite holiday, would she not have a problem with this and how would others feel if put into a predicament like this. Might not sound to trivial but isn't consolidation part of a relationship. I can see myself how that would put a wrench into my plans if that were a situation that I was faced with.

    Just looking for your thoughts and experiences. I don't proffess to know much, just learning by asking and hopefully finding answers to life's questions. I better stop now before I start sounding like Tareq!
    If what you said is true then it's just more prove that Mel is just an ignorant judging-the-book-by-the-cover bimbo who wouldn't give any man she considers "not beautiful enough" the time of the day instead of giving everyone a fair chance. From what you said there, Zach is nowhere near a good match for Melana, then why couldn't she see thru that? And pick someone who has a better chance, say Dennis for example.... would his mother not allow him to marry outside of his family's faith? or not allowing him to participate in x-mas? Despite these serious questions about the relationship why did Mel went ahead and chose Zach anyway? Her love for eye-candy outweighs the desire for a healthy long-lasting relationship? Is that it? ....oh wait, we already know the answer lol

  4. #34
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    One more post

    I was restraining myself from adding to this post, but after seeing everything that has been written, I simply have to add my own 2 cents. I have not seen a post from someone who truly understands Judaism or any of the major problems Judaism is facing due to inter marriage. I am Jewish; I am very tolerant of other religions. Growing up in a Christian society, where Jews are just 2 percent of the population, I have many Christian friends, and Jewish friends. I have no problem going to a friendís house for Christmas and share in THEIR beliefs. I also love hosting my Christian friends for Jewish holiday and teaching them about MY beliefs. Does this mean I put up a Christmas tree or they put a menorah in their house? No, but you can still be tolerant while holding on to and respecting who you are and being proud of your religion. I do look down on Jewish families (where both parents are Jewish) who put a Christmas tree in their house. I think it teaches children to not value who they are and to try and be someone else. As I child I would beg my mom for a tree because all my friends had one. My mom would explain that we are Jewish and we do not have one, but not to be embarrassed or feel different, but love who you are. She would come every year to my class when I was a child and teach the other children about Hanukah. I am so grateful that my parents did not give into society's pressure and instilled tradition and pride in me. Ok now going back to my original point. Currently over half of all Jewish people will marry outside the faith. While the majority of Christians and Jews see nothing wrong with the practice, the fact is in a society that while not religious is Christian the children are much more likely to be Christian and loose their Jewish identity. I have seen this from personal experience and studies back this up to. The majority of children from these marriages feel more comfortable being Christian as it is often easier. Even if they are raised with both religions, eventually they will likely marry a Christian, and a little more of their Jewish part is lost. Judaism is unique in the fact that it is so much more then just religion. It is a culture, it is a history. Of course all religions have that aspect, but I think any Jewish person will agree with me that it is more cultural then some other religions. Judaism is the only major religion that really is getting smaller and the population older. My grandfather spent almost 3 years of his childhood hiding in an attic in Poland because he was Jewish. To me it would be a disgrace to all the 6 million who died for being Jewish to not do everything I can to keep my traditions alive. This is my opinion and one shared by many others although sadly I donít think by enough other Jewish people. Oh and just a side note Hanukah in fact is the least important Jewish holiday. In Israel children do not receive gifts at all for Hanukah; instead they receive small amounts of money. Hanukkah only became important in the states because it is so close to Christmas, and so that Jewish kids could receive presents too.

  5. #35
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    Very well said, toshncali! I agree wholeheartedly. This said after spending time this evening explaining why Christmas is not "better" than Chanukah, it is just different (and totally unrelated) and that my kids should be proud of their heritage.


    I still think it was a dumb question - most Jews DO NOT have Christmas trees. Yikes! Then again, I still get gifts with Christmas designs on them "I know you don't celebrate Christmas, but..." (but WHAT????). I should send over some matzot for Easter!
    Last edited by foodgal; 12-01-2003 at 11:36 PM.

  6. #36
    FORT Fanatic k1w1's Avatar
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    toshncali hey I respect you and your words wholeheartedly too (as foodgal just mentioned) and I think what you said does reflect the reality of those with the Jewish faith.

    But I gotta say I hope you don't take what I said before to be some kind of misunderstanding or even something that is going against your religion becoz I'm really not. And I can honestly say alot of the posters of this thread feels the same.

    The "problem" (if you will) here is not about the Jewish faith or the Jewish tradition or the religion itself per say, in fact that has absolutely NOTHING to do with what Italian Idol or I was intended/ wish to explore... what I mean is we are merely talking about the situation between Melana and Zack and the FACT IS Zack's mother do not approve his son to go into a relationship with someone who does not have the same faith as themselves..... while there's absolutely nothing's wrong with that imo... the FACT IS Mel is no Jew.... therefore the problem arises if Zack and Mel were ever going to hook up in the future, with issues surrounding compatibility..... how could this "relationship" exist when clearly a stone wall has been set up between the guy and gal right from the start. How can they exist without disrespecting one another's culture/ faith? Would you suggest if they do become a couple that both of them seperate around the time of Christmas every year? Or force either the conversation to Judism or the renouncement of it, depending on which "side" you're on in order to keep this relationship "working"? Is that it?

    Clearly the answer is NO!

    It's not because there's something wrong with the Jewish culture/ faith. It's not because Zach's mother is wrong to keep his son away from non-Jewish relationships. It's not because Mel is wrong for allowing herself to enjoy and participate in Christmas even though she knows her potential boyfriend can't/ won't join in.

    It's only because this barrier between Mel and Zack is just too great. And this barrier will interfere with their relationship together and nothing "workable" will come out of it.

    But you might also ask, can there be a compromise between the couple? OF COURSE there can be a compromise. One of the two or even both can sacifice him/her/themselves for the benefit of the relationship to work out.... and blossom. However, then if that's the case, we're talking about possibly "breaking" religious/ cultural traditions aren't we? And I'm not just talking about breaking Jewish traditions but I'm also talking about possibly breaking the Chistmas traditions too, right?

    So we're back to square one.

    Can this relationship overcome its hurdles? Or its already too high to jump over right from the beginning?

    That's all I'm asking here.

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    Ok well this post addressed several different issues. I tried to address them, but was focused on the more recent talk of Jews having Christmas trees. Obviously from what I said earlier I do not agree with Jewish people marrying outside the religion. Perhaps if there were a few hundred more million of us. But I find it a shame after all the horrors of the Holocaust, and for the Jewish religion to survive that, for it to now die out due to people marrying outside the faith. This may sound extreme but the facts speak for themselves. As I also stated over half of all Jews will marry outside their religion. This has become a huge threat to the continued existence of Judaism. However there are many, many couples out there who are in these relationshipís, many of which parents do not approve. You want to know if and how to overcome these obstacles . Well it really depends on your opinion. Like I have said imo it is to great a hurdle. But traditionally what the majority of these couples have chosen to do is incorporate both religions into their and their childrenís life. From my experience this rarely works as well as it sounds. The children become more confused then anything and wind up not valuing either side, and like I said will generally stray more to the Christian faith, which of course only makes worse the already large crisis of a dwindling Jewish population. Then there is the big concern if the mother is not Jewish according to Jewish law the children are not Jewish. Only the Reform Jews, who are still a relative minority although they are growing, would consider these children Jewish. This can spell major problem and difficulties not only for their children but any future generations. The problem with compromise is really what a compromise is, is a solution where everyone looses something. And I know people will say but what if you love someone, you canít choose who you love. Well true but in most cases there is a relationship before love, so I personally only date in my religion. Which let me tell you can be very hard considering how few Jewish men there are, but I made the mistake once of getting in a relationship with someone who was not Jewish. I was young and thought well it does not matter who I marry as long as I love them. Well then my family and I accompanied my grandfather and his brother on a trip back to Poland, where they had not been since the war ended 50 years ago. I saw first hand the tiny barn attic where my grandfather, his brother, mother, father and an aunt were forced to hide in fear just because they were Jewish. I heard the stories of how after the war my grandfather left his family to try and go and establish a home in what was then Palestine. He tried several times to get in, but was always turned away. One time when he was on a boat with 98 orphans and himself, the British Navy attacked their ship. My grandfather helped to fight back, but they were no match to the British forces. The British sent them to France where he spent a year before walking back to Poland, because France did not want him either. Yes he was walking all this time, and did I mention he was only 14? And no one would take this child because he was Jewish, even though the war was over. I could go on and on about the stories, the concentration camps I saw, the gas chambers were so many innocents were killed. Oh and a side note Hitler did not care what your mother was, just one grandparent being Jewish was enough to kill you. That trip to Poland changed my life, and I only wish everyone, most importantly Jews, but really everyone could experience that. After that trip I realized I could never marry a non Jew. And I had to face the painful reality of breaking up with someone I truly loved but just could no longer be with. I personally am not going to put myself in that situation. So I guess this was a long answer to simply say no I think they can not and should not overcome the obstacles. But you will get different opinions from different people. But I hope I have done a good job of explaining where I am coming from

  8. #38
    daydream believer Gypsy Rose's Avatar
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    Thanks to all for the added input to an interesting discussion, and especially to toshncali for the thoughtful and insightful posts. I hear and completely respect what you're saying.

    As to how "on topic" the discussion has been---how is it not completely ON topic, when Melana's very question to Zach was whether or not he, a Jew, celebrated Christmas?! Granted their conversation (that we saw) didn't get as involved as ours here, and certainly (THANK GOD!) the point as it relates specifically to them as a couple is now completely moot...

    ...but I too enjoy the slightly more relaxed discussion that is allowed here compared to other boards. In my book, if it's an issue that is raised on a show (through the actions or attitudes or circumstances surrounding the characters) its appropriate to discuss. That is, of course, until it gets TOO off-topic, heated, or just generally in any other way gets on the nerves of the mod.

    I personally appreciate the fact that so many here were able to conduct themselves as adults, and calmly share their perspective and respective wisdoms re: a sensitive topic of discussion (as religion ever is).

    Thanks to all...

  9. #39
    LG.
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    very interesting conversation, folks. No objections from this Mod. On to the point about religious differences betweeen Zach and Melana, if only marrying someone who is Jewish is important to Zach (as marrying outside her religion does not appear to be an obstacle for Melana), then the responsibility to find out the faith of the women who is the "center of attention" on this show before he agrees to go on the show is on Zach. The fact that he's willing to go on the show and date Melana, but (if true) wouldn't have a "serious" (meaning leading to marriage) relationship with her shows that is on the show for reasons other than searching for a lasting romance. If however he would be willing to have a serious relationship with a non-Jewish woman, then he is making a (rather common) choice and his mom might very well hate that poor woman for the rest of her life, even though it was Zach's "choice" to marry outside his faith.
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  10. #40
    FORT Fanatic k1w1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LG.
    very interesting conversation, folks. No objections from this Mod. On to the point about religious differences betweeen Zach and Melana, if only marrying someone who is Jewish is important to Zach (as marrying outside her religion does not appear to be an obstacle for Melana), then the responsibility to find out the faith of the women who is the "center of attention" on this show before he agrees to go on the show is on Zach. The fact that he's willing to go on the show and date Melana, but (if true) wouldn't have a "serious" (meaning leading to marriage) relationship with her shows that is on the show for reasons other than searching for a lasting romance. If however he would be willing to have a serious relationship with a non-Jewish woman, then he is making a (rather common) choice and his mom might very well hate that poor woman for the rest of her life, even though it was Zach's "choice" to marry outside his faith.
    Very good for pointing that out. I totally agree with what you are saying... the responsibility does lie on Zach himself than anyone.... if he wished to go against his mother's wishes and go for the non-Jewish girl, that's his choice.... if he honoured his mother's wishes, that's his choice as well. The responsibility is on him.... but the fact that he would goes on the show (assuming the bit about his mother not approving non-Jewish daughter-in-laws is true) shows his own disregard for his mother's wishes and more importantly his disregard for his religious tradition. Therefore, I think the issue that we've been discussing here (so far) is irreverent as to suggest the "validity" of the Jewish tradition or how it plays as role when a couple has different faith/ belief system between them. It just wasn't necessary to "justify" or "vilify" the Jewish tradition in our discussion. The fact of the matter is Zach has ALREADY chosen his path... he made his choice to go against his own cultural/ religious tradition by pursuing Melana as his mate. He himself has made a conscious attempt to get the girl into a relationship with him and whether his mom accepts it or not is already too late.... but I gotta say if there ever was a chance between Zach and Mel, I think it would cause alot of headache in the relationship and I don't think it will be a healthy one.

    That is why I've been questioning Mel's intelligence to continue to pick Zach to the next round instead of getting rid of him when she learns of his background.

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