Just a side note on Melena's conversation with Zach.

[oneTVslave]

...this interesting conversation is almost certainly neither here nor there considering the non-future of the non-relationship between Zach and Melana , but hey, they brought it up!

Melena and Zack may as well have spent those extra few moments swapping spit, because you are right - it won't be a factor in their non-relationship. But who says reality tv can't be educational?

[lambikins]

Amen, and pass the chicken soup!

[KMK0902]

Speaking from first hand knowledge, this is what I know:

In Chicago, which has a healthy Jewish population, both traditional and non-traditional Jews celebrate the commercial aspect of Christmas.

I have a client base of 68 Jewish families: some so uninvested in their religion that they call themselves agnostics and some so IN-vested in their religion that they follow all of the traditions of Sabbath, seperate cooking vessels/dinnerware, etc.

ALL of these families have Christmas trees (I install them and remove them for them.) with the accompanying lights AND ornaments. Some are in their 80's; some are in their 30's with wee children.

Why? Like the rest of humanity, they love the scent of an evergreen and the beauty of sparkling lights. Some trees are decorated in Stars of David and blue lights (a traditional Jewish color) and other trees are decorated as if they were in the Walton's living room. They also have wreaths and pointsettias decorating their home.

Some have Hannukah gifts underneath, some have 'Christmas' gifts underneath, especially if the children are raised in both faiths. I even have two African-American Jewish families that also celebrate Kwanza along with Christmas and Hannukah. The children are very healthy and sensitive to other cultures as a result of their insider knowledge.

NONE...and I repeat, NONE of the children or families are confused about their faith or belief. And let us not forget: virtually 100% of "Christmas" traditions: wreaths, fresh evergreens, holly and carols have their foundation in PAGANISM, NOT Christianity, which co-opted the traditions of native cultures to assimilate them into Catholicism, making the religion more palatable.

People that NEED religion to be the wedge between their future relationship will grasp onto this difference; people that want to make a future together will find a way to integrate the differences.

I never saw AVERAGE JOE as the means for anyone gaining anything longer than their 15 minutes of Fame. I don't know if Melana is naive regarding religion, or, if in her experiences, she knows Jewish families that celebrate the aesthetic part of the holiday. I'd like to give her credit for the latter, rather than the former.

I'm sorry but being Jewish myself, being fairly religious ( keeping separate dishes for example ) I cannot fathom that a jewish family would have a christmas tree, christmas present, pointsettas etc in their home. Most of my friends are Jewish, but not nearly as observant as myself ( as an example, they happily bring in bacon/ribs )but NO ONE, and I mean not a single one would ever contemplate having a christmas tree or celebrating christmas!

This whole discussion is kind of ridiculous, considering that Melana and Zach will never get to that point nor would they be able to comprehend what we're talking about.......

K

[lambikins]

This whole discussion is kind of ridiculous, considering that Melana and Zach will never get to that point nor would they be able to comprehend what we're talking about.......

K

No knowledge is ridiculous and the original poster had a legitimate question. This is why I qualified my answer by stating that this is what is taking place in Chicago and the North Shore. Jewish populations may have different takes on observances in Houston, Portland, or L.A. You represented yet more information, which is of the good.

If you want to talk about ridiculous, the fact that ANY of us are wasting our time talking about this show to begin with is truly the ridiculous discussion.

If Melana brought up the topic, it's fair game to discuss it here, whether or not Zach is her SoulMate, RoomMate or ZachAss 2.0.

[KMK0902]

No knowledge is ridiculous and the original poster had a legitimate question. This is why I qualified my answer by stating that this is what is taking place in Chicago and the North Shore. Jewish populations may have different takes on observances in Houston, Portland, or L.A. You represented yet more information, which is of the good.

If you want to talk about ridiculous, the fact that ANY of us are wasting our time talking about this show to begin with is truly the ridiculous discussion.

If Melana brought up the topic, it's fair game to discuss it here, whether or not Zach is her SoulMate, RoomMate or ZachAss 2.0.

Sorry lamkikins, I didn't mean that you or anyone else was ridiculous. Just the fact that we're spending so much time talking about something so stupid as a reality tv show!! I did not mean to point fingers at anyone!!!!

THe origional question was a good and legitimate question. Without questions and the knowledge we receive in form of answers the world would be an even scarier place!!

Again, I did NOT mean to insult anyone!!!

K

[LizzyK]

Melena seems quite clueless to me. I'd love to have had Kathy Griffith as the "Lady in Question". She would have worked those guys over until they were beginning to beg to be put on the bus back home. I'm so tired of Malena's lines, "I feel a connection to you, I don't feel a connection to you, I could feel a connection to you." Malena is waiting for Tom Cruise to walk by and forget the Average Joe biz. She is a pampered lady, high maintenance and these guys don't get how insincere she is. Yet, each one thinks she's honing in on them. Wrong, honies. She's out for Malena and Malena only. Matter of fact, I've never heard any money mentioned in the show????? What's the bottom line an when it this show over? Gee Whiz, I'd love to see a James Spader type be brought in and play Malena for all it's worth.

[wendiness]

Sorry lamkikins, I didn't mean that you or anyone else was ridiculous. Just the fact that we're spending so much time talking about something so stupid as a reality tv show!! I did not mean to point fingers at anyone!!!!

THe origional question was a good and legitimate question. Without questions and the knowledge we receive in form of answers the world would be an even scarier place!!

Again, I did NOT mean to insult anyone!!!

K

Just throwing in my two cents worth here. I have Jewish friends who have what she calls the Hannukah tree. It's the same as a Christmas tree but instead of lights, she uses balloons.

As for personal experience, my ex-husband was Jewish and he was in the habit of having Christmas trees. My ex-in-laws didn't put up a tree but we did have Christmas dinner and exchanged Christmas gifts. They considered themselves to to be "reformed" Jewish. As for my ex, he was pretty much inactive.

I don't think Melana's question was really so odd. Not to say I think she's all that sharp, you understand.

[memphisredhead]

Just throwing in my two cents worth here.

Two or three more cents here and then I have a question...

I had a Jewish roommate in college who swore her parents would disown her if the man she married wasn't Jewish. When her elder brother married, his Protestant girlfriend converted (and then un-converted once they divorced!). Two of the three children in her family had birthdays in early December so they always had a "holiday" party in the first couple of weeks of the month. Since so many houses had Christmas decorations (and so many were so over the top!) I jokingly asked her mother if she ever just got ticked off at Christians. She very seriously told me "yes". (I'm in no way suggesting that is a common Jewish response!!! (she was a very serious person with almost no sense of humor and she took her religion very seriously))

As far as participating in another's traditions, in one town where I lived I had a very good friend who was Israeli. She invited me and my husband to Hannakah dinner and we had her family to Christmas dinner (and she brought a lovely hostess gift of a table runner embroidered with poinsettias-which I thought was very cool of her).

My question is- a few years ago I read an article by a man who was Jewish and married to a Christian wife, they had two children and were celebrating all the holidays. He said he didn't mind having a Christmas tree but he couldn't bring himself to allow a star on top of it. He didn't explain and I very well may be dense but I couldn't understand why a star in particular would be troubling. Can anyone enlighten me?

[spes]

The star is troubling, in a Jewish household, because it is a symbol that directly refers to the story of the birth of Jesus. The rest of the tree/lights combination can be passed off, by some Jews, as just an old pagan tradition.

[Bojado71]

Actually, I do know Christians who enjoy Passover rituals, since it is an important event in our Bible and history as well.

I have a question about the Christmas thing, and I DO NOT mean it to be argumentative or insensitive at all----just looking for honest responses.

As a Christian, to me the holiday is All About the advent of Christ. However, as it has come to be celebrated, the true spiritual aspect of it is often entirely neglected. Many Christians themselves don't even participate in Christmas tree or "Santa" traditions, feeling that they detract from the religious aspect of the holiday.

So my question is--do some Jews participate in the secular Christmas fun, and the universal spirits of the season (giving, etc), WITHOUT acknowledging the spiritual aspect of it? And if not, why couldn't they?

I know the very fact that it's called CHRISTmas is problematic , but other than that, for instance, the modern "Santa" is entirely unrelated to the birth of Jesus. Know what I mean?

Please enlighten what is probably my ignorant thinking, here!

I feel it is terrible how you have brought this post off topic. An apology from you to the group is in order.