Just a side note on Melena's conversation with Zach.

[Juls2]

I am sitting here reading this thread and shaking my head. Of course, Zach does not celebrate Christmas - he's Jewish. By the same token, he wasn't stupid enough to ask Malena, do you celebrate Passover? Of course she doesn't, because she is Christian. Because he doesn't personally celebrate a holiday not in his religion does not mean he can not enjoy that holiday with friends, neighbors, spouse, etc. In that same vein, there is no reason why a Christian friend, neighbor, spouse can't join a Jewish family for a Passover seder or a Hannukah dinner. The Christian friend, etc. would never be asked are you making the seder -- but on the same token, there is no reason not to participate and enjoy and learn about other cultures and religions. I think Malena is clueless and once Zach got over her pretty blonde looks, he'd actually be pretty darn bored.

[oneTVslave]

I just googled the whole Judaism-passed-by-the-mother thing and found the following information (if anyone is interested) ...Why is Judaism based on maternal lineage?

I realize, of course, that this may be a somewhat antiquated way of looking at things, and as the article states - it is common with reformed Jews in the US that a child of either Jewish parent is accepted as Jewish. But some families are deeply rooted in tradition...

[Christine]

I'm not sticking up for Zack, because I don't like the guy at all - but I don't believe he said he wouldn't celebrate Christmas, he just said he doesn't celebrate it. I think his reaction was due to her surprise when he said he didn't. Melana acted like she couldn't believe it, as if everyone in the world celebrates Christmas.

I thought her reaction was dumb. Like the chick on the Bachelor who couldn't believe that a multi-millionaire doesn't frequent the Olive Garden.

[Christine]

I don't know if any of you caught the conversation that Melena had with Zach about Zach's mother wanting him to marry a Jewish girl.

I thought this conversation lent some credence to Brad's claim that Zach said Melana is not his type and he would never want her as a girlfriend. Although Brad's tattling was dispicable and desperate I think there was a grain of truth in there. I don't think they aired Zach's comments because Zach is now playing the role of the underdog as one of the final three Joes and perhaps Melana even chooses him in the end.

[Miss Filangi]

I'm pretty sure the first episode, when Zach was going on about how humiliating it was to be grouped in with the nerds, he said Melana wasn't his type anyway. I took it as a throwaway comment, but I'm pretty sure he said that.

I don't think Melana sees these guys as her soulmate, so I'm not sure the compatibility factor is an issue with her.

[Gypsy Rose]

Actually, I do know Christians who enjoy Passover rituals, since it is an important event in our Bible and history as well.

I have a question about the Christmas thing, and I DO NOT mean it to be argumentative or insensitive at all----just looking for honest responses.

As a Christian, to me the holiday is All About the advent of Christ. However, as it has come to be celebrated, the true spiritual aspect of it is often entirely neglected. Many Christians themselves don't even participate in Christmas tree or "Santa" traditions, feeling that they detract from the religious aspect of the holiday.

So my question is--do some Jews participate in the secular Christmas fun, and the universal spirits of the season (giving, etc), WITHOUT acknowledging the spiritual aspect of it? And if not, why couldn't they?

I know the very fact that it's called CHRISTmas is problematic , but other than that, for instance, the modern "Santa" is entirely unrelated to the birth of Jesus. Know what I mean?

Please enlighten what is probably my ignorant thinking, here!

[oneTVslave]

So my question is--do some Jews participate in the secular Christmas fun, and the universal spirits of the season (giving, etc), WITHOUT acknowledging the spiritual aspect of it? And if not, why couldn't they?

I know the very fact that it's called CHRISTmas is problematic , but other than that, for instance, the modern "Santa" is entirely unrelated to the birth of Jesus. Know what I mean?

Please enlighten what is probably my ignorant thinking, here!

Certainly they could, and many do. But religious Jews would not do so. Even though I was raised Jewish, I "celebrate" Christmas with my step-sister and her family. It doesn't bother me, really, because I have grown up with Christmas all around me. But you can never really forget what Christmas is supposed to really be about, as so many of the songs are about Jesus, the savior, etc., so I can never really look at it as a "secular" holiday.

So- back on topic - I wondered if there was any merit to what Brad told Melena about Zack, or if he totally made it up. But you bring up a good point Christine, maybe Zack had actually said Melena wasn't his type because of the religious conflict. However, I wouldn't be surprised if he had said it because he didn't want to look bad in case he was rejected. Of course, Brad probably played up the comment also, to make it sound worse...

[KMK0902]

I have a lot of Jewish friends and I know to some of their families, marrying someone Jewish is EXTREMELY important. One Jewish friend said she would never bring home a non-Jewish man whom she was dating to meet her father. She also said if she had ever married a non-Jewish man that her father would probably stop all contact with her. Sad, but that's how some families are. As for the person who said that if a Jewish man married a non-Jewish woman, then their kids wouldn't be Jewish -- I don't think that's true. A Jewish friend of mine married a woman from Mexico. I don't know if she converted to Judaism, but I do know she wasn't Jewish to begin with, yet their children are being raised as Jewish. I attended their son's Bar Mitzvah last year -- pleasant event.

Lynn

If a non jewish woman is married to a jewish man, they can raise their kids jewish, they can also convert the children, so that they are "truly" jewish. A lot of reform synagouges would also allow a child of the above union to have his/her bar/bar mitzvah, but a conservative or orthodox would not.

I'm jewish myself, and have never been able to understand how you can raise your children with more than one religion. How can you explain to a child the meaning with christmas ( we're celebrating that Jesus was born ) and then on the other hand say that he's not arrived yet. But I guess that you don't go into the reasons for the different celebrations... To me religion is important and I believe that kids need to know why something is celebrated. Maybe that's just me!

Sorry about going of topic, I don't think it really matters for Zack and Melana though, as this will never lead to anything......

K

[lambikins]

So my question is--do some Jews participate in the secular Christmas fun, and the universal spirits of the season (giving, etc), WITHOUT acknowledging the spiritual aspect of it? And if not, why couldn't they?

I know the very fact that it's called CHRISTmas is problematic , but other than that, for instance, the modern "Santa" is entirely unrelated to the birth of Jesus. Know what I mean?

Please enlighten what is probably my ignorant thinking, here!

Speaking from first hand knowledge, this is what I know:

In Chicago, which has a healthy Jewish population, both traditional and non-traditional Jews celebrate the commercial aspect of Christmas.

I have a client base of 68 Jewish families: some so uninvested in their religion that they call themselves agnostics and some so IN-vested in their religion that they follow all of the traditions of Sabbath, seperate cooking vessels/dinnerware, etc.

ALL of these families have Christmas trees (I install them and remove them for them.) with the accompanying lights AND ornaments. Some are in their 80's; some are in their 30's with wee children.

Why? Like the rest of humanity, they love the scent of an evergreen and the beauty of sparkling lights. Some trees are decorated in Stars of David and blue lights (a traditional Jewish color) and other trees are decorated as if they were in the Walton's living room. They also have wreaths and pointsettias decorating their home.

Some have Hannukah gifts underneath, some have 'Christmas' gifts underneath, especially if the children are raised in both faiths. I even have two African-American Jewish families that also celebrate Kwanza along with Christmas and Hannukah. The children are very healthy and sensitive to other cultures as a result of their insider knowledge.

NONE...and I repeat, NONE of the children or families are confused about their faith or belief. And let us not forget: virtually 100% of "Christmas" traditions: wreaths, fresh evergreens, holly and carols have their foundation in PAGANISM, NOT Christianity, which co-opted the traditions of native cultures to assimilate them into Catholicism, making the religion more palatable.

People that NEED religion to be the wedge between their future relationship will grasp onto this difference; people that want to make a future together will find a way to integrate the differences.

I never saw AVERAGE JOE as the means for anyone gaining anything longer than their 15 minutes of Fame. I don't know if Melana is naive regarding religion, or, if in her experiences, she knows Jewish families that celebrate the aesthetic part of the holiday. I'd like to give her credit for the latter, rather than the former.

[Gypsy Rose]

Thanks for the several thoughtful answers! OneTVslave, it did occur to me that the music might be the most pervasive and unavoidable religious reiteration of the season.

lambikins, your post painted a lovely picture. I personally wouldn't advise anyone to enter into a union if their dearest held beliefs conflicted, but also agree with you that:

"People that NEED religion to be the wedge between their future relationship will grasp onto this difference; people that want to make a future together will find a way to integrate the differences."

HOWEVER---also agreeing that this interesting conversation is almost certainly neither here nor there considering the non-future of the non-relationship between Zach and Melana , but hey, they brought it up!