Episode 4 show discussion *spoilers*

[Carlylicious]

I just discovered this show, and it's pretty entertaining to watch! Part of what makes it interesting (for me) is that I don't particularly find ANY of the women all that endearing, so I won't be rooting for one vehemently against the others...

I think that Elyse is beautiful, but WAAAAAYYYYY too thin. Scary thin. And her personality can be pretty abrasive. She's pretty harsh in her criticism of the others, in a very condescending way. In those moments, I despise her.

I think that Adrianne is "interesting". Hmmm...that's not always a compliment, is it? The nasal, mumbling voice has got to go. It's incredibly annoying. Sometimes I look at her and think "sure, I can see her as a model"...but other times, I'm baffled as to why she made it this far.

Kesse (sp?) ... I really don't understand her being in the finals. She's not that beautiful. Her pictures are okay, but not amazing.

Robin (yn?) is striking, IMO. In the same way that Tyra is. And I love that she's got a figure. She can be self-righteous sometimes, but Elyse corners the market on that front. So perhaps their views balance one another out?!

Ebony? Glad she's gone. She was obnoxious, and not all that beautiful.

Giselle? Meh. And a lousy attitude to boot. Get rid of her.

Okay...one very entertaining facet of this whole show is that Tyra Banks (known infamously for her tantrums & diva behavior) is actually lecturing these women on THEIR behavior! Ha! That's really funny!

And what a bunch of characters they're parading around in front of us...from the runway/walking style diva-man, to the group at the Indian building (what was that place again?), to the judges and photographer/s, and trainer. Whew!!!

[Carlylicious]

A moment with ... Janice Dickinson, model/photographer/author

SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER STAFF

Days after graduating from high school in Hollywood, Fla., Janice Dickinson headed for New York seeking a modeling career. She'd won a national competition, "Miss High Fashion Model," and thought New York was waiting for her. Wrong! Eileen Ford, head of the legendary modeling agency, declared Dickinson, who is Polish, "Much too ethnic. You'll never work."


Photos from her book "No Lifeguard on Duty" show Dickinson during her modeling career.
In the 1970s, blue-eyed blondes ruled runways, magazine covers and the ads inside. But another agency owner, Wilhelmina, thought she had an interesting look and signed her on. French and Italian designers and photographers adored her. She returned to New York as one of the first supermodels, earning $2,000 per day when the going rate was about $75.

Drugs, alcohol and a new crop of models pushed her from the limelight. At 33 she moved to L.A. to "reinvent myself." At 40 she hit bottom. Today, at 47, she's clean, sober, a PTA member. And she's written a book, "No Lifeguard on Duty" that tells all -- from childhood abuse to sexual encounters with everyone from Mick Jagger to Sylvester Stallone.

On modeling today: "It's an ugly, dark industry. Last week in New York (working as a guest editor for More magazine) there were still empty Champagne bottles backstage at shows. Mothers don't let your daughters grow up to be models unless you're present. Photo shoots for underage girls are like letting an ant walk around with honey. Savvy (her daughter) wants to be a veterinarian and that's fine with me."

On self-help books: "Self-help books are for the birds. Self-help groups are where it's at. Or, use 'No Lifeguard on Duty' as a No. 1 self-help book. I've been the queen of dysfunction and made every mistake one can make."


On surviving three marriages: "Because I'm an alcoholic and drug addict, because I spent my life running and drowning, I wish I knew (then) what I know now, thanks to my recovery program. I wish I'd gotten sober at a younger age. I got moral. My children are raised morally."

On her mantra ("Fake it till you make it"): "It came from the 12-step program. It means 'act as if': Act like a courteous person. Act as if you're a human being. I made mistakes by being a narcissistic bitch."

On her best pickup line: "I can wrap my legs around my neck. (She demonstrates.) Can you? It worked with Stallone."

-- Susan Phinney

[Mosaik]

Also a first time watcher, on the advice of a good friend...

I was slightly entertained but not overly so. Guys don't want to know this much about models.

Thoughts pretty much echoed what you've all been saying...

Elyse is definitely model material, with a beautiful face, but this girl is disgustingly skinny. Perhaps this is an unrelated comment, but I hope women don't think that body type is what most men desire... *shudder*

Adrianne could be a great model as well - she is very photogenic. Alas she too suffers from skinnydrome. But seriously, what is up with her voice and her speaking tone? Is she an adroid? No, can't be - androids have more emotion and range in their voices.

Robin - love the shapely figure but alternately scary/weird in the face... and what an attitude. She wouldn't last 5 minutes in the modelling world unless she abandons her "moral" high ground.

Shannon - I see girls like this all over the place. What is the deal?

Gisele - I want to see one of the other girls slap her.

Kesse - Poor man's Tyra Banks. Poor, poor man.

Tyra Banks - Surprisingly well spoken in my opinion... seems to be a very intelligent person... although it could all be scripted.

[Tigrazhia]

I was hoping for Giselle to get the boot last night because I think she's a brat. They are right about her self esteem issue, in that business you need it, you gotta beleive you are hot $h*t & the best on the planet in order to make the pictures look good.

She seems to me to be one of these people who sail through life without much challenge, gets what she wants when she points at it & really haven't worked much to get what she wants in life & now she HAS to work for it & she doesn't know how to put in that extra effort. I dont know..just casual observation.

Robin & Shannon's attitude towards gay people was pretty ridiculous too, I dont know how they expect to cope in the modeling world like that... they've gotta deal with all sorts of people if they want gigs & especially gay people.... They gotta lighten up their "holier than thou" attitude & get with it..sheesh.
People like that piss me off....argh.
So unfriendly & judgmental, I'd be nervous having friends like that, I'd never be good enough

Will be itneresting to see if Giselle pulls her act together, knowing how close she was to being booted off.

[twoelles]

I've read a lot of the comments on Elyse's thinness and how most of y'all hope that men don't think it's desirable. I am a very thin person, and thin people like Elyse do exist AND we're normal. Although I do agree that for her stature, Elyse does seem to be underweight, but let's hope that next week's episode proves that she does eat healthily. Usually, she's eating an apple in some of the scenes, so she does look like she's ingesting.

But, please, stop bashing thinness as something disgusting, gross and abnormal. And, please don't give me the spiel about how thin people should be so lucky, while there are so many obese people living in America. Bashing is bashing is bashing.

[twrigh1]

ALTHOUGH I KNEW ITWAS JUST A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE EBONY WAS CUT, I am extremely disappointed that Ebony got eliminated. Her absence will be sorely missed. She had lots of personality and was opne to accepting and working to improve on any constructive criticism (unlike Kesse who is a blubbering, babbling idiot and Gisselle is either rolled her eyes or look with a blank stare when she was confronted by her obvious lack of confidence). As viewers could see Ebony practiced her cat walk ( based on MS. ALEXANDERS COMMENTS) and attempted to moisture herself when told about her skin HAD TO IMPROVE...to name a couple of things amongst many THAT SHE TRIED TO DO because as WE know and as she coNtinually reminded us that this is a what?.... A COMPETITION!

BOTTOM LINE IS EBONY (OR EBONY LOOK A LIKES ) CAN NOT BE EXPECTED TO BE JUDGED FAIRLY BE PEOPLE WHO HAVE A TYPICAL STANDARD OF BEAUTY. EBONY WAS NOT PLAYING ON A LEVELED PLAYING FIELD TO BEGIN WITH. ITS' SAD BUT THE REALITY IS IN AN AMERICAN'S TOP MODEL COMPETITION SHE SHOULD BE HAPPY TO HAVE MADE IT THUS FAR. I just loathe the judges (especially WASHED UP AND BITTER JANICE AND tyra) for giving her such false beauty with such comments as " Your skin color is so beautiful..." Yeah right!

There is absolutely no way Giselle shouldn't have been eliminated. She is not a team player, she is lazy and no confidence. This is THE OPPOSITE OF everything and more that EBONY had and more.

Hopeful she will morph out of existence next week and PRETEND TO dance her way back to where she come from. If not her, than Kesse ABSOLUTELY MUST go.

Kesse has the personality of a DULL NUMBER TWO PENCIL. SHE IS a baby and doesn't even have the looks of a super model nor. iT'S INTERESTED HOW QUIET SHE WAS UNTIL THE BOOTY COMPETITON STARTED. CHURCH LADY DROPPED IT LIKE IT WAS HOT DIDN'T SHE? NOT AS INNOCENT AFTER ALL. BET SHE ISN'T AS SKILL AT READING THE BIBLE (I WOULD BE SUPRISED IF SHOULD COULD ACTUALLY READE AT ALL). THIS IS A CLEAR EXAMPLE TO WATCH OUT FOR THE QUITE OR BIBLE THUMPING TYPE.


BUT I'M NOT BITTER JUST REAL

[Deep Dish]

firestone
Elyse and Adrianne are my favourites. This is the first and only reality TV show I watch, and I watch it for no other reason than trying to catch a couple of boobie shots of these two.

katkatalk
Robin and Shannon whined about homosexuals -- does it escape their attention that the Runway Diva Dude with the awesome legs told Elyse he had a boyfriend?

They do seem to have a double-standard when it comes J. Alexander. I think in Deuteronomy there's a verse about it being okay if you're particularly fabulous.

intrst
Someone needs to tell that judge to get the chip off of her shoulder before she can judge if someone else has an edgy personality.

Are you talking about Janice Dickinson? In the first episode, she warned us she was going to be the most opinionated judge on the panel because she's seen it all. While Janice was extremely popular in the business back in the day, I think she's being way too liberal with her belief she was one of the world's first "supermodels." That word and concept did not exist in the late 70s and early 80s.

Carlylicious, thanks for posting that article!

spegs
And Giselle bugs me to no end, lazy, conceited, whiney little princess. Did I mention lazy? And she just doesn't have "it" in her photos (IMO), not memorable.

I think if they could have eliminated both Ebony and Giselle last night, they would have.

Mosiak
Perhaps this is an unrelated comment, but I hope women don't think that body type is what most men desire... *shudder*

It's totally a related comment. Keep 'em coming!

"Most" is an interesting word, however. I happen to think what a particular person desires is function of what they can get, so to speak.

twoelles
But, please, stop bashing thinness as something disgusting, gross and abnormal.

I agree with you, twoelles. I see nothing wrong with being thin. The reason it's being brought up in this context, I think, is because medical statistics show eating disorders are measurably more common in professions where a specific body type is needed. There are however gray areas of when behavior qualifies as a full-on eating disorder and when it's praise-worthy dedication to being fit for your job.

twrigh1
BOTTOM LINE IS EBONY (OR EBONY LOOK A LIKES ) CAN NOT BE EXPECTED TO BE JUDGED FAIRLY BE PEOPLE WHO HAVE A TYPICAL STANDARD OF BEAUTY. EBONY WAS NOT PLAYING ON A LEVELED PLAYING FIELD TO BEGIN WITH.

There is no question that black supermodels are few and far between. There's Tyra, Naomi, Iman, Alek Wek and Liya Kebede. That's about it.

I don't understand what you mean by Ebony look-a-likes though. Alek made her mark with a shaved head. Ebony didn't fail because she is of an under-represented class type. I think she failed because she's bad at modeling.

[Tigrazhia]

I agree with you, twoelles. I see nothing wrong with being thin. The reason it's being brought up in this context, I think, is because medical statistics show eating disorders are measurably more common in professions where a specific body type is needed. There are however gray areas of when behavior qualifies as a full-on eating disorder and when it's praise-worthy dedication to being fit for your job.

I know I commented on Elyse being skinny, but I wasn't bashing at all, it's just I know it's very common for girls in the model industry to push their bodies to the extreme, including eating disorders. But she seems healthy in general so that's probably not the case.

[Carlylicious]

Wyndemere
I know I commented on Elyse being skinny, but I wasn't bashing at all, it's just I know it's very common for girls in the model industry to push their bodies to the extreme, including eating disorders. But she seems healthy in general so that's probably not the case.

The other thing is that the camera adds something like 10 pounds to your appearance. So if Elyse looks so thin as to be completely skin & bones on camera, what must she look like in person?

There's thinness, and then there's extreme thinness. People who are naturally extremely thin are few & far between. (I'm not talking about just thin, I'm talking about excessively thin.) I think that's what people are talking about, and concerned about, in reference to Elyse (et al). To me, she seems awfully frail, and pale. She simply doesn't look like a healthy thin person.

And I think that the modeling industry is wrong to assume that people prefer to see clothes modeled on people who have no figures, no shape to their bodies...at least if they would offer more of a variety of body types, we could all relate to at least one of them! The average size of most women in America is 12/14 these days. So, taking the +10 pounds added by the camera into consideration, a model who represented the average American woman would be at LEAST a size 8/10. These women are nowhere near that.

Also, I had to laugh when they were talking about one of these women being a potential "plus size" model! Are they INSANE?

[Deep Dish]

Originally posted by Carlylicious
And I think that the modeling industry is wrong to assume that people prefer to see clothes modeled on people who have no figures, no shape to their bodies...at least if they would offer more of a variety of body types, we could all relate to at least one of them! The average size of most women in America is 12/14 these days. So, taking the +10 pounds added by the camera into consideration, a model who represented the average American woman would be at LEAST a size 8/10. These women are nowhere near that.

You are correct about the average size. As to what people prefer seeing and how the modeling industry is wrong about it, well, they must be doing something right because it's never been making more money than it is today.

This is all about a fantansy. It's make-believe. Hair stylists, make-up artists, photographers and designers work very hard to achieve a look with a proven record.

Most of the money is not made on the haute couture or ready-to-wear, even. It's made in the sale of accessories (e.g., shoes, bags and belts) and fragrances and other personal-care items.

There's enough buyers who do buy the clothes to make the fantansy on the runway and in the pages of Vogue cost-effective. And the benefits of the image portrayed are seen when women of every size buy a Gucci bag, an Hermes scarf or Chanel No. 5.

No one wants to see themselves up on the runway. They want to see a more idealized version.

A far greater segment of the buying puplic gets their clothes from Sears and such, and that's just fine with the fashion industry, because they are getting their designer name out there, which will make them more money than selling size 0 or 2 dresses.

Also, I had to laugh when they were talking about one of these women being a potential "plus size" model! Are they INSANE?

Carlylicious, read my post here http://www.fansofrealitytv.com/forum...191#post218191 for some information about the plus-size modeling industry. Tyra herself has said "plus" is actually "normal," but this is industry jargon. And plus-size modeling is majory making money as well. You won't hear successful plus-size models complaining about their label.