Victoria - Cycle 9

[BustaK]

Originally Posted by EdwinC

But it will definitely leave the judges and Tyra looking stumped cause she would have proven them wrong. And we all know the judges are always right

I think had they shown that incident it would have made Victoria look rude but it would have made the judges look stupid AND rude.

[Google]

 

[ArtSciBoy]

I hope Victoria realizes that she can do both school and modeling at the same time. She's tall enough, young enough, has the body and that editorial look that could take her far.

[Ruairidh1992]

I find this Victoria vs The Panel thing is getting old, I think that little stunt she did that was very un-wise, you should never do that and as horrible as it sounds she should have just let the judges comment on how her personality was un-appealing because if your going to keep comming back with more and more to say people who are working with you will eventually get fed-up and not want to work with you, as far as what I've seen on the show when Nigel was saying she had no charm she should have listened because in my opinion there was no charm apparent at all and she did not seem likable at all even if she was loved in the house, its the same with who's a lovely girl Ebony, lovely girl in the house but at panel she loses that but she keeps her mouth shut and listens to Tyra and co when they try to help her.

I think I might have missed out a lot of vital stuff to go with my opinions but the rant is now done

[MMLEsq]

I'm unmotivated at work today, so I was quite happy to stumble upon this debate. Personally, I thought Victoria was a bit serious in front of the panel and maybe not "smile-y" enough, but that's just her personality. Maybe not the best personality to have if you're a model, but I really can't fault someone for being serious and asking questions in an effort to try to learn. I didn't see her questions to the judges as confrontational, until the "prickly" comment to Twiggy, which did seem kind of out of line. She didn't even let Twiggy finish what she was going to say... for all she knew, Twiggy could have intended to say something like, "It's interesting that you got the cactus, which is prickly, since you're not prickly at all." I don't think that's where Twiggy was going with her comment -- I think Victoria was probably correct in what she assumed Twiggy was going to say -- but Victoria shouldn't have interrupted her, let alone in such a snippy tone, in my opinion.

However, what really jumped out at me in these heated discussions was the following:

Originally Posted by RealityLovesMe

Victoria didn't have to say that she doesn't think the other girls are smart. The other girls may not go to a university as overrated as Yale, but many of them are in college. Ambreal also goes to a great school and Mila is already in graduate school at NYU (is it?) at the age of 20! So Victoria was not smarter than the other girls at all!

I might be biased toward the Ivy League since I went to Columbia and my sister went to Harvard, but I would hardly call Yale overrated. I know that there are lots of reasons why people go to different colleges (financial or otherwise), but someone that goes to Yale probably is smarter than someone that goes to a school that's easier to get into. Is it going to be true in every case? No. But, in most cases, it will be. But, regardless, it doesn't make her a better (or worse) person.

[SurrnderDorothy]

Originally Posted by MMLEsq

I know that there are lots of reasons why people go to different colleges (financial or otherwise), but someone that goes to Yale probably is smarter than someone that goes to a school that's easier to get into. Is it going to be true in every case? No. But, in most cases, it will be.

Sorry, but you really can't draw that inference that in most cases a person who goes to Yale-- or any other Ivy League school-- is smarter than a person who goes to a school that is "easier to get into".

There are numerous reasons why a person who is academically qualified to go to Yale does not go there. "In most cases" presumes that everyone is given an equal opprtunity to go to Yale if qualified, and that everyone who was who was able to go to Yale would choose to go there.

Similarly, not everyone who gets into Yale is among the "brightest and best" of that year's crop of applicants to universities.
*cough* Jodie Foster *cough* Brooke Shields *cough* *cough* George W. Bush *cough*

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I do want to add that I agree with the rest of your post.

[MMLEsq]

Originally Posted by SurrnderDorothy

Sorry, but you really can't draw that inference that in most cases a person who goes to Yale-- or any other Ivy League school-- is smarter than a person who goes to a school that is "easier to get into".

There are numerous reasons why a person who is academically qualified to go to Yale does not go there. "In most cases" presumes that everyone is given an equal opprtunity to go to Yale if qualified, and that everyone who was who was able to go to Yale would choose to go there.

Similarly, not everyone who gets into Yale is among the "brightest and best" of that year's crop of applicants to universities. You surely aren't naive enough to believe that simple academic achievement always trumps social connections in getting into Ivy League schools?

*cough* Jodie Foster *cough* Brooke Shields *cough* *cough* George W. Bush *cough*

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I do want to add that I agree with the rest of your post.

Well, at least we agree on something.

No, I am not so naive to believe that legacies are not receiving special consideration in some cases. Without getting into a political debate with anyone else out there, I totally agree with you on the George W. Bush point. However, I have read articles where Brooke Shields has addressed the question of whether she was qualified to go to Princeton, and she mentioned that her classmates, who were skeptical at first, were convinced when she had one of the top grades on one of their first tests. I don't think I ever heard anyone say that Jodie Foster wasn't intelligent enough to get into Yale. Until now, I've never heard anyone accuse either of them of getting in through social connections. From my own experience at Columbia, and witnessing my sister's experience at Harvard, most of people there had excellent grades and test scores, but because there's so many applicants for each spot, there's very often something else that made them stand out. For example, one of my sister's friends at Harvard was a very accomplished French horn player, which set her apart from the 100s of other applicants they got with 4.0 GPAs and top SAT scores. In the same way, being a successful actor at a young age is going to give that person a perspective that other students wouldn't be able to bring.

As I originally stated, I acknowledge there are different reasons why students choose their colleges. Is the smartest student at, say, Miami-Dade College smarter than the dumbest student at Yale? I'm sure he or she is. Still, I believe that most Yale students are smarter than most MDC students. Picking a more selective college as an example, the intelligence gap (so to speak) would be narrowed. But, I stand by my original opinion that Yale students generally are going to be smarter than students at schools that aren't in the position of being as selective as the top schools.

As a complete aside, David Letterman did the following Top 10 list while Brooke Shields was at Princeton. I'll never forget #9 -- it had me laughing out loud when he first said it.

Top 10 Papers Written by Brooke Shields at Princeton
10. William Shakespeare: His Poetry Rates a Ten
9. A Chemical Process in Three Stages: Lather, Rinse, Repeat
8. Girls with Thin Eyebrows: Hideous Freaks of Nature
7. Cliff Notes Versus Monarch Notes: Two Views of Hamlet
6. Circles, Flowers, a Smiling Guy: So Many Ways to Dot the "I"
5. The Pushy Overbearing Mother Figure in Literature
4. Pretty Leaves I Found Outside Somewhere
3. Black Americans: What I Hope to Say When I Meet One
2. Philosophy: Why Don't They Spell It with an "F"?
1. The Male Organ: What It Might Look Like

Okay, back to Victoria. Whatever she ends up doing, whether it includes modeling or not, I wish her success.

[SurrnderDorothy]

Originally Posted by EdwinC

I mean, the entire hand voting thing and shoe thing is GREAT for television, but they weren't shown.

This presumes "the hand voting thing and shoe thing" actually happened the way Victoria described it in her post-elimination interviews.

Have we had any confirmation from anyone else who was there (I'm not counting anonymous tipsters as credible here) that the hand vote made Tyra and the panel "look bad" and Victoria "look good"?

It's just as likely to have been a really uncomfortable moment that embarrassed all the other girls and put them on the spot early in a contest that they actually cared a lot about.

Similarly, the "shoe thing" may not have played the way Victoria describes it, since it hasn't been verified by another on-the-record eyewitness.

It's a shame we only get two more FORT interviews with the contestants and can't ask all the others for their takes on the incidents.

Originally Posted by EdwinC

But it will definitely leave the judges and Tyra looking stumped cause she would have proven them wrong.

How could taking a vote of how she was perceived by the other girls "prove them wrong" on how her behavior and attitude at panel as perceived by Tyra and the judges was?

If a girl turns out a photo that's an utter disaster, and she gets the other girls to raise their hands and say they thought it was actually one of the best of the week, does that negate the poor quality of the picture because the judges got "outvoted"?

It's not about votes or how well you're liked by the other contestants. (And this even assumes the other girls actually thought she was nice, and weren't raising their hands because they felt pressured to do so-- or because they wanted to get rid of Saleisha instead.)

You're confusing behavior in your peer group with professional conduct. Victoria was being judged by the panel on the latter, and the former doesn't matter at judging.

[TunaFests]

Originally Posted by SurrnderDorothy

This presumes "the hand voting thing and shoe thing" actually happened the way Victoria described it in her post-elimination interviews.

Have we had any confirmation from anyone else who was there (I'm not counting anonymous tipsters as credible here) that the hand vote made Tyra and the panel "look bad" and Victoria "look good"?

It's just as likely to have been a really uncomfortable moment that embarrassed all the other girls and put them on the spot early in a contest that they actually cared a lot about.

Similarly, the "shoe thing" may not have played the way Victoria describes it, since it hasn't been verified by another on-the-record eyewitness.

It's a shame we only get two more FORT interviews with the contestants and can't ask all the others for their takes on the incidents.


How could taking a vote of how she was perceived by the other girls "prove them wrong" on how her behavior and attitude at panel as perceived by Tyra and the judges was?

If a girl turns out a photo that's an utter disaster, and she gets the other girls to raise their hands and say they thought it was actually one of the best of the week, does that negate the poor quality of the picture because the judges got "outvoted"?

It's not about votes or how well you're liked by the other contestants. (And this even assumes the other girls actually thought she was nice, and weren't raising their hands because they felt pressured to do so-- or because they wanted to get rid of Saleisha instead.)

You're confusing behavior in your peer group with professional conduct. Victoria was being judged by the panel on the latter, and the former doesn't matter at judging.

Maybe the whole point she was trying to make was that they can't decipher her personality from the hour or two that she's in front of the panel. That's why she had the vote. And if it embarassed the other girls in any way, i'm sure they wouldn't have even voted!

In regards to the shoe thing, Victoria never even brought it up until an interviewer who had gotten hold of spoilers mentioned it to her. I wouldn't be too skeptical of "anonymous tipsters" since that person was probably an editor.

[GuruBishisama]

Originally Posted by SurrnderDorothy

This presumes "the hand voting thing and shoe thing" actually happened the way Victoria described it in her post-elimination interviews.

Have we had any confirmation from anyone else who was there (I'm not counting anonymous tipsters as credible here) that the hand vote made Tyra and the panel "look bad" and Victoria "look good"?

I have a friend, Ann, from High School who, while at college this year, met a guy who's sister is an editor/writer for ANTM. It's her job to go through the footage and compile a general "plot" for each episode. Ann found out about the vote via her friend, and she called to tell me, only for me to explain that thanks to FORT, I already knew. Ann was by no means a fan of Victoria--she hated her actually, but she told me that according to this guy's editor sister, Victoria got a really unfair edit, and that she was overall one of the sweetest girls in the competition.
If you guys really want, I can ask for the friend's sisters name next time I speak to her.

[RealityLovesMe]

Originally Posted by MMLEsq

I might be biased toward the Ivy League since I went to Columbia and my sister went to Harvard, but I would hardly call Yale overrated. I know that there are lots of reasons why people go to different colleges (financial or otherwise), but someone that goes to Yale probably is smarter than someone that goes to a school that's easier to get into. Is it going to be true in every case? No. But, in most cases, it will be. But, regardless, it doesn't make her a better (or worse) person.

I have a tendency to disagree with you. I go to a top university that happens to also be a public university. Many of us were accepted into ivy league schools, but could not afford tuition. Most of us did not even apply to ivy league schools because we knew that we could not afford them.
I think the only thing that going to an ivy league school says about a person is that they are wealthy or were lucky enough to get a huge scholarship.
Victoria doesn't seem to be too smart to me. She was too proud and her mindless decisions got her eliminated! What good is an ivy league education if it doesn't give you common sense?