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Thread: 4/24 Show Discussion **Spoilers**

  1. #71
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    Re: 4/24 Show Discussion **Spoilers**

    Quote Originally Posted by ahecht View Post
    Did anyone else find Phil's phrasing awkward at the end? He couldn't bring himself to say that the cowboys had been eliminated:

    "I'm sorry to tell you that you are the last team to arrive and are out of this race"

    I'm also surprised that this is only the second time that they've played the Cowboy's theme song.

    I didn't notice what he said so much as how he looked--Phil looked aggravated that he had to tell them that they lost and when he asked them why he thought they lost, he looked positively pained that Jet said it was all his fault. I think Phil knew exactly what had happened at that point and that if it had been up to him, some penalties would have been assessed, but he had no choice.

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    Re: 4/24 Show Discussion **Spoilers**

    Oh, people were upset on the first episode where there was answer sharing too, but it may have been just a little bit less of a roar then because that was a NEL. The fact that it actually cost a team (and a popular team at that) the Race this time is what's really frustrating everyone.

    I can understand why they didn't just check the odometer-the point of having the map with them was so that if they DID get lost, they could try to calculate by how much using the map and subtract that from what was on the odometer. I have no problem with the way THAT was set up. But the guy at the roadblock should have been able to send them back to do it on their own, or they should have been assesed a penalty at the mat by Phil. In fact, I thought for practically the whole episode that Jen/Kisha WERE going to get a penalty at the mat. The cameras made a point of zooming in on their lost map and played the ominous music, and they clearly could never have gotten to the right answer on their own without the map since they had gotten lost as well.

    Now, if two teams had decided to ride the course together- or like Jet and Gary, had run into each other part of the way- then worked on the answer together, calculating possible msitakes and comparing answers before turning it in...well, that I wouldn't have had a problem with. Like someone pointed out, it's the difference between working together on a puzzle (I think two teams in that first flag challenge actually did that-hey, you solve the first part, I'll solve the second, and we go to the next clue together) and someone saying "Hey, just give me the answer because I know I'm wrong and I don't want to have to go back and try again" and not having to do the work because one team is liked/disliked/seen as a threat/whatever.

    Frankly, considering how nice the prizes have gotten for just winning a leg, I'd NEVER give out an answer.

    What I don't have a problem with is the use of the U-Turn (though the placing was sketchy) The Globetrotters had SEEN the cowboys while they were doing the task and they had no way of knowing how far along Jet and Cord were. So it was really smart of them to go ahead and use it-while the Globetrotters might or might not have been able to outrun the cowboys to the mat, there's always the chance of taxi trouble on the way there.

  3. #73
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    Re: 4/24 Show Discussion **Spoilers**

    Quote Originally Posted by Newsboi View Post
    This wasn't the first episode with the sharing of answers, so I don't get why y'all are bent out of shape about it now. The cowboys themselves admitted that they hadn't had much interaction with the other teams -- that was their downfall. I don't mind at all that they are gone.
    Some of us didn't like it the first time it happened either, but I think part of the reason it didn't excite as much argument before is that this time it involved at least 2/3 of the teams (possibly more, depending on whether K/V were completely involved or not) and the collusion was clearly directed toward keeping one team behind, as opposed to one team helping out another they happened to like. I don't think that's fair either, but it's less egregiously obvious in its unfairness, so it got noticed less.

    Also, this isn't supposed to be a show about "social game," the way Survivor or Big Brother is. Some fairly unpopular teams have gone very far, even won, in the past, not because they had great social games but because they completed the most legs the most efficiently. The more socially based games have fewer rules in place, while AR has penalties for not following the rules, only they seem to have forgotten to put one in place regarding sharing answers. Perhaps they felt it wouldn't ever happen to the degree to which it happened last night or wouldn't be used to eliminate a team viewed as stronger by everyone else. If so, they were being very idealistic.

    The rules need to be changed--or enforced. If teams need to complete roadblocks to advance, then they should need to complete all aspects of those roadblocks on their own to advance. In a physical roadblock, no one is allowed to help someone else carry the load, so to speak. It should be the same for any kind of challenge--mental or physical--or some teams are given an unfair advantage in that they can approach others for help with what they find difficult while others cannot. At the very least, they should have factors in place that prevent cheating--such as reading the odometers in the roadblock last night, as opposed to just accepting an answer when there was no way to verify if the competitor had arrived at the answer on his/her own.

  4. #74
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    Re: 4/24 Show Discussion **Spoilers**

    Yes. It wasn't the fact that they gave the other teams the correct answer. We've seen this happen before. It's the time they saved not having to physically go back to the start and do the entire thing again that I find annoying and unfair. When they were explaining the challenge, Phil says if they get the answer wrong, they have to go back to the start and do it again....not drive around the corner, get the correct answer, and then be able to go on. If someone gave them the answer, they went back to the start and drove it again without paying the least bit of attention to the odometer and then completed the task, I wouldn't really have a problem with it. It was the fact that they didn't have to waste that extra time.

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    Re: 4/24 Show Discussion **Spoilers**

    Snip****

    What saved the Cowboys in earlier legs, more than anything else, I think, is that they didn't waste a lot of time or energy arguing. If they got behind, they just tried to work harder and more efficiently. I also think that's why a lot of people liked them better than teams that fight with each other. It's just not all that much fun to watch people scream at each other or complain endlessly about how hard a task is instead of just trying to complete it as quickly as possible. The fact that the Cowboys are physically adept certainly helped, but even when they got stuck on a puzzle, as they did in an early leg, they didn't give up and they didn't start blaming each other. Nor were they just handed an answer by another team when they couldn't get it on their own.[/QUOTE]


    Exactly!!! Tilden, You make some really good points in your comments!!!

  6. #76
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    Re: 4/24 Show Discussion **Spoilers**

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilden View Post
    I didn't notice what he said so much as how he looked--Phil looked aggravated that he had to tell them that they lost and when he asked them why he thought they lost, he looked positively pained that Jet said it was all his fault. I think Phil knew exactly what had happened at that point and that if it had been up to him, some penalties would have been assessed, but he had no choice.
    What penalties?? Oops never mind, I was having a senior moment lol!

  7. #77
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    Re: 4/24 Show Discussion **Spoilers**

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilden View Post
    Some of us didn't like it the first time it happened either, but I think part of the reason it didn't excite as much argument before is that this time it involved at least 2/3 of the teams (possibly more, depending on whether K/V were completely involved or not) and the collusion was clearly directed toward keeping one team behind, as opposed to one team helping out another they happened to like. I don't think that's fair either, but it's less egregiously obvious in its unfairness, so it got noticed less.

    Also, this isn't supposed to be a show about "social game," the way Survivor or Big Brother is. Some fairly unpopular teams have gone very far, even won, in the past, not because they had great social games but because they completed the most legs the most efficiently. The more socially based games have fewer rules in place, while AR has penalties for not following the rules, only they seem to have forgotten to put one in place regarding sharing answers. Perhaps they felt it wouldn't ever happen to the degree to which it happened last night or wouldn't be used to eliminate a team viewed as stronger by everyone else. If so, they were being very idealistic.

    The rules need to be changed--or enforced. If teams need to complete roadblocks to advance, then they should need to complete all aspects of those roadblocks on their own to advance. In a physical roadblock, no one is allowed to help someone else carry the load, so to speak. It should be the same for any kind of challenge--mental or physical--or some teams are given an unfair advantage in that they can approach others for help with what they find difficult while others cannot. At the very least, they should have factors in place that prevent cheating--such as reading the odometers in the roadblock last night, as opposed to just accepting an answer when there was no way to verify if the competitor had arrived at the answer on his/her own.
    So does sharing directions to a particluar place included in these new rules?

  8. #78
    FORT Fogey KeepItReal's Avatar
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    Re: 4/24 Show Discussion **Spoilers**

    IMO a lot of people are making this out to be everyone vs the cowboys. While there was clip after clip of people talking about what a threat they were there was never a time when the remaining teams got together and said that they were going to take out the cowboys by sharing answers. Justin got it right first. I don't think he gave Jen the answer, but he spoke it out loud when asking for the clue. Jen probably heard it and used it. It was a mistake but I don't think he out and out gave her the answer. Of course she listened, heard, asked Justin and then he confirmed. If he had refused to confirm the number or told her she was wrong for no reason he'd be making a new enemy. That was not a case of answer sharing.

    Now when they reached the bus stop and ran into FT he began asking for the answer. Everyone was quiet until he made the "you're going to make me go back" comment. At that point Jen so "No" and that prompted Justin to give the answer. I don't know why he did it. Jen seems really fond of FT, and maybe Justin, knowing that Jen just said she would give the answer, chimed in to keep his goodwill with the GT's. Who knows, but at that point there was still no mention of teaming up to get rid of the cowboys. Only mention of the cowboys was on the bus when Justin asked Jen if it would have been Jet or anyone else if she would have given up the answer. She said no.

    FT then runs into Gary and hands up the answer without him even asking for it. FT says something about showing a little goodwill on the race or something like that. Then they show the clip of FT and Big Easy with Big Easy saying "you don't want to have to run head up with the cowboys. They're smart and they're a quick team". This is when it starts to sound as if this was being done to knock out the cowboys. That doesn't mean that's how it really was, because those sound bites are edited in as needed. Gary and Vyxin never shared the answer with anyone. Kent made the "we're going to put some cowboys on ice" comment that made it seem as if everyone was working together to get the cowboys out, and then when G/M, FT/BE and K/V were waiting for the train they asked about the cowboys making it and someone said they were pretty far back at that time. Again, not a direct plot to knock out the cowboys.

    Okay, I get it-not fair. As I said before I don't like how they went out. This leg of the race a flaw in the game was exploited. The race has had questionable things slide by before that has cost a team the race. Maybe it's because it's been such a good season that I don't find myself in an uproar over it this time, but for some reason I just don't. When you implement a "no giving out the answer" rule it may become blurry even to work together to solve a task. Somewhere along the line it likely will, followed by another fan uproar. AR has been one of those shows where sometimes something will slide and irritate me, but honestly, it's one of the most straight forward shows left on the air right now and I still find it to be such a refreshing departure from Survivor, BB, etc. Plus I love me some Phil. I still think that they edited things this way to build up drama. I know, I know-people feel the race itself presents enough drama. As we know that hasn't stopped them in the past from building the drama in a number of different ways. It is what it is.
    Last edited by KeepItReal; 04-25-2011 at 01:07 PM.
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  9. #79
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    Re: 4/24 Show Discussion **Spoilers**

    Quote Originally Posted by princess07 View Post
    So does sharing directions to a particluar place included in these new rules?
    I'm not sure what you mean exactly by sharing directions. If you mean sharing directions on how to get from one stop to the next, that's not always been an obvious assist to anyone, since people frequently aren't as reliable as others think they are--not because they cheated, but just because they're not as good at directions as everyone (including those being relied upon themselves) think they are. That happened this season when a couple of teams elected to follow Ron and Christina in China, assuming their language skills would make it easier for them to find their way around. It didn't, and it ended up costing everyone who followed them time.

    If following the directions to a particular place were the key to succeeding at a challenge, then, yes, I think that it should be against the rules. Usually, however, just getting somewhere isn't enough to provide that much of an advantage in a challenge. For instance, getting to the checkpoint last night wasn't the only thing they had to do on the bikes. They also had to get the mileage right. Only by handing the answers on to several teams, arguably the most difficult portion of that challenge was eliminated. It also potentially saved the teams who had gotten lost and were handed the information by others a tremendous amount of time, because they didn't have to go back to the start and try again. And yeah, if they had to eliminate all helping out on challenges altogether--no working together in any way--to make sure that answers weren't just passed from one team to the next, I'd be in favor of that. I'd rather see teams succeed or fail on their own merits, even if they were teams I liked. We've all seen teams we like fail because of bad decisions or an ability to complete a task and if that's all that had happened to the Cowboys, I wouldn't be complaining (I even totally understood why the GTs used the uturn against them, even though I didn't like it, and everyone knew from the beginning of the leg that the uturn potential was out there). I liked the GTs the first time they were on the race, and I was sad to see them have to give up on a task and take a penalty because BE was so frustrated that he clearly wasn't going to finish in less time than the penalty would have cost them. I like them less this time out, because in similar mental challenges, they've just been given the answer. I understand that they're likable, as I've liked them too, but this is supposed to be a competition where your skills at various tasks determine whether you win. If you're likable you might be able to use that to your advantage by, say, being nice to locals instead of rude to them and getting someone to help you that way, but the locals wouldn't know the exact answer that allows a team to complete the task--and everyone would have the option to ask local people, who have nothing to win or lose by giving assistance, for directions etc. Or, they could eliminate that option, which they have in some legs, if they thought it would offer too much assistance.

    I realize the current rules don't explicitly state that no contestant shall tell another the answer to a challenge, perhaps because they felt it was assumed that in a race, you wouldn't do that. Unfortunately, nowadays you have to spell out everything or people will claim it wasn't "wrong" because it wasn't explicitly stated in the rules. That's why everything from contracts to syllabi are pages longer than they used to be. I was merely suggesting that the AR producers need to start thinking about making rules much clearer about what constitutes cheating and what doesn't if they are going to have rules/penalties at all. It's rather odd that they'd penalize a team for taking the wrong flight because they got lost all on their own and got to the airport too late to catch the correct flight, but they wouldn't penalize teams for giving away/taking the answer to a challenge. The first is not a deliberate act, while the second surely is a deliberate attempt to give some teams a definite advantage.

  10. #80
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    Re: 4/24 Show Discussion **Spoilers**

    Quote Originally Posted by KeepItReal View Post
    IMO a lot of people are making this out to be everyone vs the cowboys. While there was clip after clip of people talking about what a threat they were there was never a time when the remaining teams got together and said that they were going to take out the cowboys by sharing answers. Justin got it right first. I don't think he gave Jen the answer, but he spoke it out loud when asking for the clue. Jen probably heard it and used it. It was a mistake but I don't think he out and out gave her the answer. Of course she listened, heard, asked Justin and then he confirmed. If he had refused to confirm the number or told her she was wrong for no reason he'd be making a new enemy. That was not a case of answer sharing. Now when they reached the bus stop and ran into FT he began asking for the answer. Everyone was quiet until he made the "you're going to make me go back" comment. At that point Jen so "No" and that prompted Justin to give the answer. I don't know why he did it. Jen seems really fond of FT, and maybe Justin, knowing that Jen just said she would give the answer, chimed in to keep his goodwill with the GT's. Who knows, but at that point there was still no mention of teaming up to get rid of the cowboys. Only mention of the cowboys was on the bus when Justin asked Jen if it would have been Jet or anyone else if she would have given up the answer. She said no. FT then runs into Gary and hands up the answer without him even asking for it. FT says something about showing a little goodwill on the race or something like that. Then they show the clip of FT and Big Easy with Big Easy saying "you don't want to have to run head up with the cowboys. They're smart and they're a quick team". This is when it starts to sound as if this was being done to knock out the cowboys. That doesn't mean that's how it really was, because those sound bites are edited in as needed. Gary and Vyxin never shared the answer with anyone. Kent made the "we're going to put some cowboys on ice" comment that made it seem as if everyone was working together to get the cowboys out, and then when G/M, FT/BE and K/V were waiting for the train they asked about the cowboys making it and someone said they were pretty far back at that time. Again, not a direct plot to knock out the cowboys. Okay, I get it-not fair. As I said before I don't like how they went out. This leg of the race a flaw in the game was exploited. The race has had questionable things slide by before that has cost a team the race. Maybe it's because it's been such a good season that I don't find myself in an uproar over it this time, but for some reason I just don't. When you implement a "no giving out the answer" rule it may become blurry even to work together to solve a task. Somewhere along the line it likely will, followed by another fan uproar. AR has been one of those shows where sometimes something will slide and irritate me, but honestly, it's one of the most straight forward shows left on the air right now and I still find it to be such a refreshing departure from Survivor, BB, etc. Plus I love me some Phil. I still think that they edited things this way to build up drama. I know, I know-people feel the race itself presents enough drama. As we know that hasn't stopped them in the past from building the drama in a number of different ways. It is what it is.
    I don't have it recorded, so I can't check, but I'm pretty sure when FT offered the answer to Gary, he said something to the effect that he didn't want him to have to go up against Jet, because that wouldn't be fair. Why it wouldn't be fair, I'm not sure, as everyone enters that race knowing that not every team is going to be equal in abilities in every way.

    I agree that AR has been among the fairest of the reality contest shows, but last night, it clearly wasn't all that fair. If they had to eliminate contestants helping each other in any way during actual tasks, I'm not sure how much that would really damage the game or eliminate drama. There would still be drama involved in traveling through and to the various countries, choosing the right task, choosing the right person to complete it (if only one person is involved), figuring out the best way to complete it, seeing who soldiers on in spite of the odds and who loses it etc. For me, many of the best moments in AR couldn't have been made more dramatic than they were--that poor woman unrolling all those bails of hay, even when they were clearly in last place, because she refused to give up; racers stopping in the moment to be, literally, amazed at something they'd never seen or expected to see (like Gary saying last night that he hated to close his eyes and sleep for fear of missing the magnificent scenery); contestants managing to overcome a fear to do something they never thought they could do or making a sacrifice they didn't think they'd ever make for the sake of continuing on (remember the woman who shaved her head to get the fast forward?); the guy who'd been a soldier the last time he was in Viet Nam realizing he could appreciate the country in a different way etc. That's what makes the amazing race amazing for me. And none of those things would be changed if people weren't allowed to help each other at all during tasks. Does it matter to me who wins? Sure, to some extent. Like everyone else, I have my favorites. But I said before last night that I liked pretty much everyone left in the race, except that K/V's constant whining and bickering got on my nerves and I didn't like the way they treated the locals. I was basically neutral on K/J, mostly because, for whatever reason, they just didn't stand out for me much as a team. What happened last night just made me like all the remaining teams a little less and made the show that much less enjoyable for me.

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