Jet and Cord - TAR 16

[jsciv]

While I see your point, I still respectfully disagree. Even at 30 minutes left, there can easily be a huge argument about it, and then the teams could be removed from say the airport or arrested for creating a disturbance on the plane.

There is a HUGE potential issue and loophole here that CBS will have to close for the safety of both contestants and other regular passengers on the flight. This holds very true when you have teams like Dan and Jordan, Brent and Caite, Brandy and Carol - and previous seasons Flo and Zach, Team Guido, and a few others who had hot-headed tendencies (at least half the team).

I guess we have to respectfully disagree then. There was no indication that there was a fight about this (in fact, the implication from Brent's interview is that it could have been a waste of time), and I don't think many (if any) racers are going to be able to flirt their way up with a FA.

As far as if an incident does happen? Teams are not going to get offered an upgrade if they're both approaching a FA and bickering about it. The FA would only offer it as a courtesy, NEVER as an entitled seat, and let me tell you, FA's in general have pretty good BS detectors. The only way I can see an incident is if a team gets belligerent about wanting an upgrade. And if they do, they're getting pulled from the plane. You want good TV? Show a team being hauled off of the plane: TAR would get fantastic ratings off of that!! No, I don't see the downside for CBS in prohibiting this.

You seem worried about violence. TAR has been on for 16 seasons. It's on CBS, who is no stranger to reality TV. The contestants have almost certainly agreed to avoid violence with penalties to their game (almost certainly up to and including disqualification). They're subjected to all kinds of personality tests and background checks before they play. During the race the racers provoke each other in every single locale they visit and have come close to blows over, or even STOLEN taxicabs from others (but there's never been a restriction placed on who has right of way in a taxi situation). I just don't see anything that makes a plane some special place that deserves an exception.

There is a huge difference between an advantage based on speaking skills, tasks that say require roping. They do NOT know who will be in what country at the time, so there is no way to predict that situation. And, as we've seen, each task usually has someone at an advantage at a different time. It balances out.

Again, I have to disagree. Aren't tasks like selling ice cream, or navigating through Chinese streets tasks based on speaking skills? TAR puts in "interact with locals" tasks in big cities all of the time and never penalizes based on how well you schmooze the locals. That's part of the race. I don't see a need to not be on the race just because the racers are on an airplane. Yes, it balances out: Dan and Jordan were awful at some of the tasks. But Dan had social skills that mattered at an important time in the race.

Maybe I'm someone who has traveled more than you and have seen this nearly happen in real life - a fight over something this mundane, but trust me, it can happen. I have very little doubt that this rule will be amended if nothing else to keep the game running. This goes especially true in recent times when we've seen team's bright ideas to help them become widely used in the game, starting with Charla and Mirna's whistle.

I travel 50K-75K miles per year in the air with at least one international trip per year (usually transatlantic, though I'm trying to correct that and get a transpacific leg in soon), and see plenty of airports and passengers. I also know a couple of Flight Attendants and have had time to chat with them "offstage" (as it were). I'm no travel virgin, nor am I a stranger to the front of the bus. One of the reasons I love TAR is that I love travel (the season they did Amsterdam they filmed it right before I was in the city, and I saw it a few weeks after I got home... which was super cool).

The only people I see acting entitled to upgrades (or even asking) are generally other elites. I've seen 100K fliers LIVID that they didn't get an upgrade when someone else with fewer miles got a seat before them. But that's not the same thing at all (since there are rules and procedures about upgrades for elites) and that's not who is running TAR. In these days of reduced flight capacity there are so few seats up front and they're so often filled that most travelers know there's no hope of asking. Internationally, you mostly never even see the front seats anyway as boarding is usually done behind the premium cabin.

There are people who are stressed out, yes. And there are people who are (justly or not) screwed by the vagaries of air travel. And there are people who act really badly with respect to carry on baggage. OMG so badly. But of all of the things I'd worry about on air travel, passengers fighting over an upgrade that probably isn't even going to happen is below the bottom of the list. It's precisely because I do travel so much that I'm fairly confident that this is not going to be a common scenario.

I can't imagine that Dan got onto the plane, winked at the FA and then said "hey baby, put us up front." He likely chatted with her for an hour or more during the flight about himself and his brother and the race before anything regarding seating came up (and really we have no way of knowing if he suggested or if she offered). That scenario CANNOT happen if more than one team are talking to the same FA. The FA will know that something is up and will present her "stage" persona to them, and any hope of upgrades will be dead.

So yeah, I still don't see this as an issue that CBS would need to address, and yeah, we'll probably never agree on that. But that's okay, CBS will do what it thinks is right and hopefully they'll keep making TAR and we'll all be happy.

[jadewarlock]

I guess we have to respectfully disagree then. There was no indication that there was a fight about this (in fact, the implication from Brent's interview is that it could have been a waste of time), and I don't think many (if any) racers are going to be able to flirt their way up with a FA.

I NEVER said there was - I said there was a POTENTIAL fight in the making for FUTURE episodes.

As far as if an incident does happen? Teams are not going to get offered an upgrade if they're both approaching a FA and bickering about it. The FA would only offer it as a courtesy, NEVER as an entitled seat, and let me tell you, FA's in general have pretty good BS detectors. The only way I can see an incident is if a team gets belligerent about wanting an upgrade. And if they do, they're getting pulled from the plane. You want good TV? Show a team being hauled off of the plane: TAR would get fantastic ratings off of that!! No, I don't see the downside for CBS in prohibiting this.

This is what I think will happen, and why give them the temptation and risk ruining what I feel is CBS' TRUE headlining reality TV show.

Oh, and trust me - there are downsides: such as say if there is a fight and the removal of the contestants from the show, the aircarrier can decide that CBS be put on a "No fly" list for their carrier and not be able to use that airliner again, and while others might be tempted to take on those passengers' money - what if it happens again? NO airliner will want to work with CBS if there is indeed an incident. If that happens, the show is done for.

Is this far-fetched? - to most here apparently. I just happen to look at the negative side that people do in fact forget.

You seem worried about violence. TAR has been on for 16 seasons. It's on CBS, who is no stranger to reality TV. The contestants have almost certainly agreed to avoid violence with penalties to their game (almost certainly up to and including disqualification). They're subjected to all kinds of personality tests and background checks before they play. During the race the racers provoke each other in every single locale they visit and have come close to blows over, or even STOLEN taxicabs from others (but there's never been a restriction placed on who has right of way in a taxi situation). I just don't see anything that makes a plane some special place that deserves an exception.

Just because they KNOW does not mean it will NOT happen. Ask Stephanie in "Survivors H v. V" - they were allowed physical contact in the first challenge, but the villain went too far, she got a dislocated shoulder, and the villain was not removed from the game.

And, we have plenty of Mtv shows to also prove this case.

I have a feeling too after this season that the taxicab issue will change - just like using items to barter services changed (that had happened in previous seasons prior to the one last year that eventually cost a team the race due to the penalties assessed.)

Finally - a plane some special place that deserves an exception? - Have you not seen the recent attempts to blow up planes? Sure, you'll say that was a different issue - HOWEVER, if you see a couple of teams come up to a FA arguing and nearly yelling/possibly shoving, you will react in a similar manner as has happened in those cases and even say with Whitney Houston throwing a fit. Maybe I'm too old and ornery for people understand this, but the REAL world issues and rules tend to create the potential for disaster for this game.

Again, I have to disagree. Aren't tasks like selling ice cream, or navigating through Chinese streets tasks based on speaking skills? TAR puts in "interact with locals" tasks in big cities all of the time and never penalizes based on how well you schmooze the locals. That's part of the race. I don't see a need to not be on the race just because the racers are on an airplane. Yes, it balances out: Dan and Jordan were awful at some of the tasks. But Dan had social skills that mattered at an important time in the race.

*sigh* You said there was some unfair advantage for the Chinese team a couple seasons back being able to speak Mandarin and said that this was no different. And apparently you have flip-flopped on your stance here - because I SAID what you just said. My issue is that a. the producers do NOT know who will be in the race at a certain time, so the "Fairness" issue is out the window. Everyone ends up doing something that has one slightly tilted in favor of another.

That said, THIS case the plane's design can very well factor into the gameplay, and therefore it is an unfair advantage to ask to be moved up. When I read - and I feel the others did too - that you can't purchase first class tickets, it means you can't because you'd gain an advantage on getting out of the plane. This is my quibble with it - period. If they cannot purchase tickets, they should NOT be allowed to sit there at all for this reason.

I can't imagine that Dan got onto the plane, winked at the FA and then said "hey baby, put us up front." He likely chatted with her for an hour or more during the flight about himself and his brother and the race before anything regarding seating came up (and really we have no way of knowing if he suggested or if she offered). That scenario CANNOT happen if more than one team are talking to the same FA. The FA will know that something is up and will present her "stage" persona to them, and any hope of upgrades will be dead.

So yeah, I still don't see this as an issue that CBS would need to address, and yeah, we'll probably never agree on that. But that's okay, CBS will do what it thinks is right and hopefully they'll keep making TAR and we'll all be happy.

This case the team moved up because the FA saw the cameras and she asked what they were about - from Dan himself. It was NOT them doing the chatting about themselves first - it was the question about the camera.

And, all this feels to me as though it's bribery almost because she could've thought they'd film her when they got off the plane (which either didn't happen or wasn't shown).

Then again - I also felt that Dan and Jordan should've been penalized for threatening the cab driver and attempting to make him break his country's driving laws. They have been penalized in previous seasons for having them break the speeding law, so I was surprised this didn't happen to them.

To me, Dan and Jordan's win will always be tainted due to this decision - IMHO, I feel that all three teams were cheated in the end because this rule is obviously vague and full of loopholes.

So, IMHO this will be addressed because seriously - it will factor into this game in a negative way one day. When we see teams playing like they have this season, you can sadly bet it will.. It says that they cannot purchase tickets for first class, therefore they shouldn't be allowed to even sit there. In the end, that was enough to cost two teams the race (it should've been closer at least).

Needless to say - Jet and Cord have taken the high road here, because they along with Brent and Caite really didn't get a fair chance to race the brothers due to that loophole.

[laceygirl]

Jadewarlock---Are you serious? First, the plane ordeal, and now you can get anywhere in your argument, and so now you have moved to a cab issue.....Your kidding right?

[jadewarlock]

Jadewarlock---Are you serious? First, the plane ordeal, and now you can get anywhere in your argument, and so now you have moved to a cab issue.....Your kidding right?

Yeah, Lacey I am... it's just that people seem to think I have no real point here. But I do - and would be saying it no matter who won if they played like Dan and Jordan did on these two issues.

I HAVE mentioned my beef with the brothers and the cab issue in the past, and let's be real - what Dan and Jordan were asking him to do - run a red light, would've gotten the driver most likely a ticket. It also could've caused an accident that could've harmed or killed them. That risk isn't worth a million to begin with.

And, had the driver done it, it also would've given them a time penalty because it would be on video that they asked him to do it and he did. This is breaking the law. Also, don't say that others have gotten away with this - several seasons there have been penalties assessed for asking the cabbies to speed. First season is a good example of this.

They should thank their stars that said driver had the audacity of wanting to keep his job over these guys instead of ripping his head off essentially. HIS choice possibly saved them from being eliminated too - that leg was close from what I read. The penalty for doing something like this - say making him speed - would be 30 minutes plus I believe a minute for every mile driven over that (i.e. going 45K in a 30K zone - a total of 45 minutes penalty) or a minute gained by the speeding.

In conclusion - if CBS wants to keep their credibility intact this will happen: The plane loophole will close, and it is a loophole when it says that you can't purchase the first class tickets but let slide teams moving up in flight. IMHO if you can't purchase them, you can't fly them, and given that all the other seasons we didn't see this happen, I feel teams also believed this to be true. Hence a loophole.

Also, they need to consider a penalty for even attempting to get a driver to break the law. It is stupid to do that to begin with for safety reasons, and the reaction from those two and others showed a vile side of us as Americans, which also left a bitter taste in my mouth of the teams that did and D&J's win.

I would be saying this no matter WHO won if they did what Dan and Jordan did. Thankfully, most of the other contestants were at least courteous enough to not tear off a driver's head for following the laws of his country.

[jsciv]

*sigh* You said there was some unfair advantage for the Chinese team a couple seasons back being able to speak Mandarin and said that this was no different. And apparently you have flip-flopped on your stance here - because I SAID what you just said. My issue is that a. the producers do NOT know who will be in the race at a certain time, so the "Fairness" issue is out the window. Everyone ends up doing something that has one slightly tilted in favor of another.

No, I said that there was an advantage. I never said it was unfair (and if I implied so, that was a mistake). Teams should be free to use inherent advantages about who they are and what they bring to the race. Including language facility, being able to sell ice cream, rowing faster than other competitors or even the advantage of being able to successfully flirt with FA's.

That said, THIS case the plane's design can very well factor into the gameplay, and therefore it is an unfair advantage to ask to be moved up. When I read - and I feel the others did too - that you can't purchase first class tickets, it means you can't because you'd gain an advantage on getting out of the plane. This is my quibble with it - period. If they cannot purchase tickets, they should NOT be allowed to sit there at all for this reason.

I believe that the reason you can't purchase first class tickets is that CBS doesn't want to spend the money on it, not that they want to enforce seating parity, especially when the seats teams ARE allowed vary from the bulkhead row next to the exit all the way back 20 or 30 rows. So I reject any argument based on the need for seating parity: in times when TAR does want seating to be or not be an issue, they use staggered flights with X slots and/or put all of the teams on a single chartered flight (both of which have been done in past seasons). There's no evidence to me that TAR cares at all about onboard seating parity or they'd just reserve the seats themselves in blocks.

This case the team moved up because the FA saw the cameras and she asked what they were about - from Dan himself. It was NOT them doing the chatting about themselves first - it was the question about the camera.

Again, I think you underestimate: even if the cameras were the conversation starter, there's no way a FA would just say "pretty cameras, please move up to First Class on me!" Dan still had to work some mojo, and that is fair. Had any other team seen what he was doing and chosen to interfere I'd lay money on the FA not moving them up.

Needless to say - Jet and Cord have taken the high road here, because they along with Brent and Caite really didn't get a fair chance to race the brothers due to that loophole.

And again, we'll just have to agree to disagree. As long as we both agree that we want more TAR next fall!

[live4romance]

Unfortunately Jet and Cord were outwitted and outplayed and they came in 2nd. I was bummed, but it is what it is. They sure made the season enjoyable.

[jadewarlock]

No, I said that there was an advantage. I never said it was unfair (and if I implied so, that was a mistake). Teams should be free to use inherent advantages about who they are and what they bring to the race. Including language facility, being able to sell ice cream, rowing faster than other competitors or even the advantage of being able to successfully flirt with FA's.

This is a cheat, not an advantage - it cheats the airlines IMHO and it really takes away from the spirit of the game.

The rest of them - I'm sorry, but there is NO way to control any advantage those. Reason? - they don't know who will be there at the end. This however is different, and CBS if they so choose could make it no first class at all on flight.

There is logical fallacy in your argument here for that reason - you can't control advantages incurred on traveling in the country, but you can control one such as moving up in first class.

I believe that the reason you can't purchase first class tickets is that CBS doesn't want to spend the money on it, not that they want to enforce seating parity, especially when the seats teams ARE allowed vary from the bulkhead row next to the exit all the way back 20 or 30 rows. So I reject any argument based on the need for seating parity: in times when TAR does want seating to be or not be an issue, they use staggered flights with X slots and/or put all of the teams on a single chartered flight (both of which have been done in past seasons). There's no evidence to me that TAR cares at all about onboard seating parity or they'd just reserve the seats themselves in blocks.

I'm sure it's both - mostly the pay, but also the seating as there are obviously fewer first class seats than coach seats. They'd fill up faster.

And - it's been obvious to me that a lot of these racers have not had an advantage of moving up closer in coach - usually it's assigned.

It's still an advantage to be in first class - and therefore it's unfair. Doesn't matter how you got there, it's still unfair.

Again, I think you underestimate: even if the cameras were the conversation starter, there's no way a FA would just say "pretty cameras, please move up to First Class on me!" Dan still had to work some mojo, and that is fair. Had any other team seen what he was doing and chosen to interfere I'd lay money on the FA not moving them up.

Dan said clearly that what first got them into the chat was the cameras, and they used said cameras, and possibly getting on the TV show, to move up. Obviously, said flight attendant got no video footage when they debarked the plane.

Given there were THREE camera crews there too, it should've been fairly obvious to the FA too that there could be others asking to move up. If they did and she refused, we'd had a huge controversy on this issue. As it is, they are going to have to look at it, because reading a lot of these Alpha types, it will eventually cause trouble.

I agree I want more "AR" in the future, hence why I'm strongly hoping CBS does consider not allowing this move. It will create trouble for them sometime - maybe not next season or the next, but if they have enough hotheads like this one... yeah, it'll cost them a lot, and possibly the chance to even do the races anymore.

[cantstopwatchin]

This is a cheat, not an advantage - it cheats the airlines IMHO and it really takes away from the spirit of the game.

The rest of them - I'm sorry, but there is NO way to control any advantage those. Reason? - they don't know who will be there at the end. This however is different, and CBS if they so choose could make it no first class at all on flight.

There is logical fallacy in your argument here for that reason - you can't control advantages incurred on traveling in the country, but you can control one such as moving up in first class.



I'm sure it's both - mostly the pay, but also the seating as there are obviously fewer first class seats than coach seats. They'd fill up faster.

And - it's been obvious to me that a lot of these racers have not had an advantage of moving up closer in coach - usually it's assigned.

It's still an advantage to be in first class - and therefore it's unfair. Doesn't matter how you got there, it's still unfair.



Dan said clearly that what first got them into the chat was the cameras, and they used said cameras, and possibly getting on the TV show, to move up. Obviously, said flight attendant got no video footage when they debarked the plane.

Given there were THREE camera crews there too, it should've been fairly obvious to the FA too that there could be others asking to move up. If they did and she refused, we'd had a huge controversy on this issue. As it is, they are going to have to look at it, because reading a lot of these Alpha types, it will eventually cause trouble.

I agree I want more "AR" in the future, hence why I'm strongly hoping CBS does consider not allowing this move. It will create trouble for them sometime - maybe not next season or the next, but if they have enough hotheads like this one... yeah, it'll cost them a lot, and possibly the chance to even do the races anymore.

I've been wavering back and forth for days about whether to get involved with this but now feel as though I have to weigh in --

I absolutely agree that being able to schmooze your way up to first class is a skill on par with getting a bystander to give you directions or being able to sell ice cream to a cabbie you treated kindly. In life, people skills get you far and count just as much as reading a map or completing a physical task.

DH is 6'5" and has to travel for work sometimes. There have been times when his company wasn't able to get him exit row seats (for more leg room) and he has seen and been able to move his way up to first class. He's never paid a dime. He simply got on the plane, saw the empty seats after the plane took off, and explained his situation. The FA's, in their own opinion, determined whether he moved forward or not. Sometimes he got lucky; others he did not. As my mother used to say -- you catch more flies with honey!

There were soooo many situations this season where personal interactions with others made or broke a team's time in the race. Weren't the cops able to sell ice cream to their cabbie b/c he was nice enough to buy them? Should there be a rule that no cabbies are allowed to particpate in a task??

When you approach a native citizen in their country, don't you think a smile with a question would entice them to want to help you more?? I think it most certainly would. (Picture Allie or Jordan here.) Compare that with crabby Caite snapping at someone while asking them a question--didn't get her very far did it?

Going with this, if I had been one of those cabbies driving Brent & Caite or Dan & Jordan while they were screaming in the backseat, I most certainly would've driven slower and not gone out of my way to help them out. Again, honey catches flies! When people push me, I push back and dig in my heels when doing so, so there would've been no way I would've helped them move forward.

People skills are most definitely a part of this "game show"!! Dan & Jordan just happened to luck out that they got an American flight attendant who was willing to help them. End of story. It sucks for Jet & Cord, who were the actually the team I was pulling for, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. They seem to have handled their loss with grace and I plan to follow their lead.

Can't wait to watch next season!!

[jsciv]

This is a cheat, not an advantage - it cheats the airlines IMHO and it really takes away from the spirit of the game.

The rest of them - I'm sorry, but there is NO way to control any advantage those. Reason? - they don't know who will be there at the end. This however is different, and CBS if they so choose could make it no first class at all on flight.

There is logical fallacy in your argument here for that reason - you can't control advantages incurred on traveling in the country, but you can control one such as moving up in first class.

Well, as usual we'll have to disagree, but you expected that, right?

There is no logical fallacy: I say treat the plane the same way you treat cabs, roadblocks, detours, etc. If the teams can work an advantage within the rules based on their inherent skills, then it's fair. I just don't see a reason for planes to be any different.

And - it's been obvious to me that a lot of these racers have not had an advantage of moving up closer in coach - usually it's assigned.

It's still an advantage to be in first class - and therefore it's unfair. Doesn't matter how you got there, it's still unfair.

See, this is where I disagree. It's an advantage earned by a team through some sort of work or skill, but it in NO way is unfair. Just like Jet and Cord had an advantage in the roping task through their related skills. Every detour, roadblock and travel segment has SOMETHING unfair about it. That's part of why you race around the world to do this instead of around a backlot in Hollywood. Well, plus "The Race Around the CBS Backlot" would be a sad sad show.

Dan said clearly that what first got them into the chat was the cameras
...
Given there were THREE camera crews there too, it should've been fairly obvious to the FA too that there could be others asking to move up. If they did and she refused, we'd had a huge controversy on this issue. As it is, they are going to have to look at it, because reading a lot of these Alpha types, it will eventually cause trouble.

I don't think that it will cause trouble. In 16 seasons of racing an upgrade that changed the outcome has happened once (we know that penalties, interactions, heck even whole roadblocks have been edited out: it's entirely possible that upgrades have been edited out too, so I'm not willing to agree that no upgrades have ever happened), and nobody else on the race seemed upset: Brent even admitted in an interview that they thought it wouldn't matter. I just don't see this as a red flag.

[jadewarlock]

Well, as usual we'll have to disagree, but you expected that, right?

There is no logical fallacy: I say treat the plane the same way you treat cabs, roadblocks, detours, etc. If the teams can work an advantage within the rules based on their inherent skills, then it's fair. I just don't see a reason for planes to be any different.

But the issue is - is this legal? The Rule does say you can't buy first class tickets, so most people have read that as not being in first class at all.

And note: 1. No one had tried this in previous seasons or it'd been aired, and 2. the ONLY other time I've heard a team being in first class that team was the ONLY one on the plane and it was beyond their control.

So... there is a question to it for the above - remember, this has been for 16 seasons and this is the FIRST time this has been pulled, so it does raise the question.

See, this is where I disagree. It's an advantage earned by a team through some sort of work or skill, but it in NO way is unfair. Just like Jet and Cord had an advantage in the roping task through their related skills. Every detour, roadblock and travel segment has SOMETHING unfair about it. That's part of why you race around the world to do this instead of around a backlot in Hollywood. Well, plus "The Race Around the CBS Backlot" would be a sad sad show.

Difference is - THIS skill is one that everyone has, the others a. will always vary, and b. they again do not know who will be at what leg of the race so there's no way to be "equal. Something such as schmoozing your way to first class is something ANYONE can do.

I don't see why you try to correlate something that they CAN'T keep variables from happening with something that CAN have the variables taken away - i.e. no first class at all versus the very apparent loophole.

Food for thought.

I don't think that it will cause trouble. In 16 seasons of racing an upgrade that changed the outcome has happened once (we know that penalties, interactions, heck even whole roadblocks have been edited out: it's entirely possible that upgrades have been edited out too, so I'm not willing to agree that no upgrades have ever happened), and nobody else on the race seemed upset: Brent even admitted in an interview that they thought it wouldn't matter. I just don't see this as a red flag.

Again - this is the FIRST time this has ever happened in 16 seasons. We have seen time and time again people bringing things with them after seeing them happen in an earlier season, i.e. the whistle for taxis started by Charla and Mirna.

We HAVE seen a rule be abused in order to gain an advantage - Rob Mariano talking people out of that meat eating challenge and all taking the four hour penalty.

I'm sorry, but an upgrade would've been shown before - because it's SNEAKY, which is what we as viewers like. Most likely this did not happen in the previous 16 seasons.

There are way too many risks to allow this to happen in the future - you cannot deny that they have had hot-headed teams, and this season we had several of the worst ones I've seen. This day and age, you do not want to risk a flight incident where two teams get together toward a FA, have them start arguing and it escalate into an argument so virulent that they end up returning the plane and they are escorted off. It's bad PR for CBS as well as embarrassing for the teams and airline.

One will always argue "Oh, it can't happen" - but given the precedent of people using things and skills from previous seasons on their season, one CANNOT say that this shouldn't be at least looked at - if nothing else for the integrity of the show itself in order to prevent an embarrassing situation. It can logically happen - we've seen enough celebrity plane meltdowns to not say it can't.