Margie & Luke - TAR 14

[jadewarlock]

Jadewarlock--I pretty much agree with you except about this--if he applied to be in a race with non-Deaf people then he should be prepared to do whatever is needed to win.

I don't think we do anyone any favors by treating them differently.

Again, we probably don't know the whole story, but I don't think he's been treated any differently as far as the challenges. If they did, I don't think the producers would've created a few of the roadblocks and challenges they've done so far where hearing could be a factor in it.

I point to the two Little People who not only are not asking for any special treatmant but have been wiping up the floor with a lot of other teams.

IMO it's a difference in attitude.

Again, I have not seen Margie and Luke ask for special treatment. They have been playing well and lived/fallen on their own hand.

And - they weren't assessed two time penalties for not following instructions or breaking the rules. The one thing I did notice in the Chekhov one was that Margie did not sign much - one thing that could've easily been a way to help Luke out (i.e. she could've signed the equivalent of "Star Trek" - which is captioned so he could've read it - and he put together Chekhov, even if spelled differently with the added "H").

They [the stuntment] obviously care about each other and they also challenge each other too.

I don't see Margie doing that for Luke.

I see an anxious mother who seems to want to coddle her son.

That doesn't do him any favors IMO.

I'm going to base this on the game and not reality as I do not know either contestant - what you see as coddling I see as cheering on Luke in challenges. If she coddled him all the time, I could have seen her do what he wanted to do on all the detours such as the pie throwing one. They both have pushed each other at times in this race, and other times, yes taken it easy on the other one.

The stuntmen I will agree on, they do care for each other and challenge each other. However, I think at times the are also a bit arrogant and naive - they were almost eliminated in India for choosing a physical task that required them to look through hay to find basically a needle in the haystack. Had the two flight attendants not had to do the speedbump they'd been eliminated for a poor choice.

But, I like both so I'm digressing here.

Being an athlete and competing against othher athletes I can tell you that almost everyone has some sort of "drawback" or lack of ability or "problem" they have to overcome.

When I first started training and was upset because of certain physical drawbacks I had, my trainer told me that winning was 5% ability and 95% attitude.

And he's been right.

Been there and done that (I have asthma and played sports, even won a state medal). I see that too with Margie and Luke - they've pushed through it with a good attitude, maybe not 95 percent, but a decent one. Save this leg (where there are six teams in there), they have been in the middle to top half of the pit stops, even winning a couple.

Seeing Luke dependent on his mother to communicate with the rest of the world AND his wanting to be in a race with non-Deaf people in a non-Deaf world creates a real dichotomy and conflict.

IMO LUke has to choose--is he going to do whatever it takes to be independent? Or is he going to always be relying on his Mom to help him get by?

He's in his 20s--most men are independent of their parents by that time.

I still think we're not seeing the whole story here - and hope that they'll clarify this case when they do their exit interview. IMHO, I still maintain that CBS would not have allowed him to compete unless he could in some way interact with the hearing public. When Christi was on "Survivor," she could read lips. It's too much of a risk for him to get lost and not be able to "Say" anything such as "How do I get to [place]" and other basics (yes even with a route marker).

And frankly - we all have points we are "Deaf" in that we sometimes cannot communicate with another person, be it outside noise around us or - as we see here - a foreign language.

Btw--most Deaf people I know carry notepaper and pen in order to communicate in less than ideal circumstances when they leave Deaf culture and go out into the hearing world.

My impression--growing stronger every week--is that Margie is trying to keep Luke dependent on her.

I would still suggest - and hopefully this might be cleared up in their exit interview someday - that in the case of the race, they did not use pen and paper because they didn't want another racer to steal their information. It's also something I wish we would know about - what if the rules say they cannot have pen and paper with them for whatever reason - since we've seen they do not carry their cells and must borrow someone's if they need to make reservations. (If nothing else, this theory would be similar to the incident where the stuntmen were penalized for hiding the airpumps - an odd issue).

And, as we all know, this game takes them to countries where pen and paper may not be helpful as they cannot speak the same language. However, this might also explain why there has been a sudden abundance of clues at times (two is at least one more than I've seen in the past seasons of the show), of picture clues to show a location.

I would hope that Margie would not make Luke dependent on her just in case something did happen to her. If nothing else, her faint during the race should wake her up to that fact and encourage Luke to learn how to read lips or make sure to keep a pen and paper/electronic blueberry type thing available so he can communicate with the world around him just in case Margie cannot.

And - even if he is in his 20s, this isn't something he can't still learn. I had a roommate who was in her mid-40s from Taiwan who was learning to improve her English. She also succeeded.

[jadewarlock]

At the same time there are men in their twenties who are police officers and physicians and surgeons and EMTs and First Responders of all kinds.

I'm not buying that Luke is so young that he'd fall apart becase his mother got sick.

IMO some people are seeing him as a teenager--from some of the comments about things like his frustration with the Chekhov challenge--instead of as a man in his twenties.

It is my personal opinion that Margie is one of them.


It's also my personal opinion (based on observations) that people tend to behave the way they are expected to. If a man is expected to behave responsibly he will. If he's expected to act like an overgrown child then he most likely will do so.

I hope that you have not seen a parent fall sick for whatever reason. My case I have - I was 26 and in another town when I got a call that one of my parents was in the hospital from a mild heart attack. I was shaking and in tears because - while he was fine - it scared me half to death. I've also been someone who has seen a few people faint in my time and it is a very scary situation where I worried that the person was OK. Again, I was in my late teens and early 20s when both occurred.

But, my point is - some people react differently to seeing a loved one fall ill - be it a faint or other illness, and would be worried to that point. And, I do wonder if in this case Luke's reaction was exacerbated by the heat and when he saw a lot of people rush over to help his mom. It looked like he too had been told to also cool down from the heat.

IMHO the Chekhov challenge is a poor example. Sure he was frustrated, but so were several racers because they had to have ALL seven letters to the person at the bottom of the ramp and make it under four minutes before they could solve the puzzle. There were several teams who had to do the ride twice - I think including Luke - because they failed to get all seven letters.

From my perspective only - I see Luke as a young adult, experiencing the highs and lows of running the race. I admit - Luke does take them to extremes, but at the same time I remember Christy did too. Mike and Mel's interview after the race mentioned they do not eat and sleep much during the race. This would affect any and all of those contestants (especially base on things I've read about Steve and Linda), and we saw one of those effects too on Margie, as I think it was a combo of things that made her collapse.

There's just too many things we see and do not see in this race - and who can forget editing - that we don't have a fair assessment of the people. We've seen some of the "rudest" people be sweet and some sweeter people (more like sweet-sour) turn out to be sour. We'll just have to wait and see as far as their interview after they're eliminated or the race is over.

[CrossingGuard]

^I'd agree that I would be fearful of other teams stealing my information if I was in Luke/Margie's position, but would the other contestants be sneaky enough to go snoop around their fanny pack (the presumable place they would put their notes)? I don't know, that fanny pack is precious as it holds the passports, money, clues, etc. It's a cutthroat race sometimes, but I don't know if anyone would go that far.

And I've seen Cara/Jaime use a pen and paper to communicate with Luke, so a pen and paper aren't forbidden. Although it could have been from a local, but I doubt it.

There is a part of me that would like to see people deal with Luke's disability for only 24-48 hours, and see just how it might affect their viewpoints after it was over. Luke's got the hearing issue, plus all of the other regular emotions that everybody else has. It's OK for him to be annoyed with something that he really doesn't like. Aren't we all?

I never claimed that him being annoyed with something he doesn't like is out-of-the-blue. I've stated continuously that I expect these racers to get stressed out with the competition's environment. But likewise, can't I be annoyed with a TV character who gets lets his less-than-ideal emotions show time and time again? It's just a tendency of mine as a reality TV fan.

[jadewarlock]

^I'd agree that I would be fearful of other teams stealing my information if I was in Luke/Margie's position, but would the other contestants be sneaky enough to go snoop around their fanny pack (the presumable place they would put their notes)? I don't know, that fanny pack is precious as it holds the passports, money, clues, etc. It's a cutthroat race sometimes, but I don't know if anyone would go that far.

And I've seen Cara/Jaime use a pen and paper to communicate with Luke, so a pen and paper aren't forbidden.



I never claimed that him being annoyed with something he doesn't like is out-of-the-blue. I've stated continuously that I expect these racers to get stressed out with the competition's environment. But likewise, can't I be annoyed with a TV character who gets lets his less-than-ideal emotions show time and time again? It's just a tendency of mine as a reality TV freak.

Ah, so at least we know they're not forbidden, and thanks for clearing that up CrossingGuard. That said - with this race this season, such as the stuntmen's hiding the pumps, I could see someone at least try it (successful or not would have interesting results).

And unfortunately, we've seen not once but twice people not take the fact their fanny packs are precious and contain important information. Last season, it cost a team the race even if they had gotten to the pit stop before the other team did.

[maude~flanders]

I don't dislike Luke/Marge but I do dislike people thinking they should get special treatment because he is Deaf--as we saw during the "Chekhov" task.

In what way did they ask for special treatment?

[stacerace]

Jadewarlock--I pretty much agree with you except about this--if he applied to be in a race with non-Deaf people then he should be prepared to do whatever is needed to win.

I don't think we do anyone any favors by treating them differently.

I point to the two Little People who not only are not asking for any special treatmant but have been wiping up the floor with a lot of other teams.

IMO it's a difference in attitude.



They obviously care about each other and they also challenge each other too.

I don't see Margie doing that for Luke.

I see an anxious mother who seems to want to coddle her son.

That doesn't do him any favors IMO.



Being an athlete and competing against othher athletes I can tell you that almost everyone has some sort of "drawback" or lack of ability or "problem" they have to overcome.

When I first started training and was upset because of certain physical drawbacks I had, my trainer told me that winning was 5% ability and 95% attitude.

And he's been right.


Seeing Luke dependent on his mother to communicate with the rest of the world AND his wanting to be in a race with non-Deaf people in a non-Deaf world creates a real dichotomy and conflict.

IMO LUke has to choose--is he going to do whatever it takes to be independent? Or is he going to always be relying on his Mom to help him get by?

He's in his 20s--most men are independent of their parents by that time.



Btw--most Deaf people I know carry notepaper and pen in order to communicate in less than ideal circumstances when they leave Deaf culture and go out into the hearing world.

My impression--growing stronger every week--is that Margie is trying to keep Luke dependent on her.

I do agree that Margie wants him to be dependent on her and coddles him (isn't that most mothers?) but I don't agree that Luke actually is dependent on her. He's actually been on his own for a few years so I'm sure he can take care of himself but he does have to rely on her somewhat in this competition with regards to communication. BTW. What little people are you talking about? Are you talking about the cousins Sharla and Myrna from a couple of seasons back? Only one of them was a little person...

ETA: I just realized...Are you calling the stuntmen little people? I don't think they would probably agree or appreciate that description. They're 4'9!!! I'm 4'10, does that mean I'm a little person? Now I don't know the maximum height to be considered a little person but don't they usually have some form of dwarfism? They most certainly don't have dwarfism, which we all know that LP is the politically correct term for. Also, aren't they Mexican? I know several Mexican men who are close to my height and a supervisor at my old job was also about 4'9 and he was Mexican. That's not to disparage Mexican's but I have observed that short stature is not uncommon in that community. They aren't little people, they're just short people! Sorry for getting a little heated there but that just came a little bit too close to home.

[MamaC]

I believe that paper and pen are allowed on the race. When Rob and Amber were in it the first time, they had a little notebook and had someone write down how to ask the taxi driver a question in the native language. It was smart thinking on their part, as they did need to ask a few questions.

I also think that earlier in the race I saw Tammy and Victor writing something down in a little notebook. And we saw Luke communicating with the reds on that train ride by using a notebook.

At the herb shop, a lot of teams were writing down the numbers of the shelves that they had already called out, that didn't have the next clue, so that they wouldn't waste time repeating and calling out the same box number.

I don't see Luke's reaction to his mom passing out as anything out of the usual. It was certainly hot and humid there, she was dehydrated even in the taxi ride to the pitstop and asked for water. When she fainted, Luke reacted normally. Fortunately for them, they were at the pitstop when this happened. If it had happened when mom was running with the rickshaw on that street, where they were really on their own, that would have been a lot more terrifying and, I hope, the camera crew would have helped Luke get the needed help for his mom.

[jadewarlock]

And we saw Luke communicating with the reds on that train ride by using a notebook.

So, this does prove that Luke does communicate with the hearing public - which is good because it does show he doesn't have to have his mom around all the time to translate.

But, it's good to know that they can bring pen and paper along with them - and they should use it for things such as writing down numbers and the like.

I don't see Luke's reaction to his mom passing out as anything out of the usual. It was certainly hot and humid there, she was dehydrated even in the taxi ride to the pitstop and asked for water. When she fainted, Luke reacted normally. Fortunately for them, they were at the pitstop when this happened. If it had happened when mom was running with the rickshaw on that street, where they were really on their own, that would have been a lot more terrifying and, I hope, the camera crew would have helped Luke get the needed help for his mom.

If I recall correctly, the cameramen can't do anything to help the teams except for a medical emergency - they'd be the only ones with phones and other equipment to contact the personnel needed (race and heaven forbid an ambulance). That's true for any show - otherwise they'd never be able to call for the medics in "Survivor" the few times we've had injured - or in case of Bruce really sick and needing hospitalization asap - people on that show.

But, given that Phil quickly helped too at the Pit Stop, I doubt that they'd not help out Margie or anyone should something happen to them because it's the right thing to do - help someone out who's injured.

[steppemaster]

I do agree that Margie wants him to be dependent on her and coddles him (isn't that most mothers?) but I don't agree that Luke actually is dependent on her. He's actually been on his own for a few years so I'm sure he can take care of himself but he does have to rely on her somewhat in this competition with regards to communication. BTW. What little people are you talking about? Are you talking about the cousins Sharla and Myrna from a couple of seasons back? Only one of them was a little person...

ETA: I just realized...Are you calling the stuntmen little people? I don't think they would probably agree or appreciate that description. They're 4'9!!! I'm 4'10, does that mean I'm a little person? Now I don't know the maximum height to be considered a little person but don't they usually have some form of dwarfism? They most certainly don't have dwarfism, which we all know that LP is the politically correct term for. Also, aren't they Mexican? I know several Mexican men who are close to my height and a supervisor at my old job was also about 4'9 and he was Mexican. That's not to disparage Mexican's but I have observed that short stature is not uncommon in that community. They aren't little people, they're just short people! Sorry for getting a little heated there but that just came a little bit too close to home.

I am so sorry about that ! (I mean that sincerely--even though in this print-only medium it might come across as sarcastic.)


I didn't realize they were that tall.

You're absolutely right and thanks so much for the right-on correction.


I will add thought that my point stands--as short people they might be expected to run into some difficult situations--but we never hear them complaining. All we ever hear them doing is being cheerleaders for each other and sometimes egging each other on.

I personally prefer their "can-do" attitude to Margie's continual over-solicitousness.

[steppemaster]

I'm making this a general comment on a number of posts here--don't we often critique and criticize racers for their attitudes and/or how they treat each other?

Haven't we been doing that for Victor and his sister?


It seems that when we do that about Margie and Luke we're being accused of singling them out--or there just ends up being a lot of defensiveness.

IMO there is going to have to be a decision--are we going to be allowed to treat Margie/Luke just like we treat the other racers?

Or are we going to have to treat them differently because of Luke's deafness?


Which is it going to be--because it cannot be both.


Let's make a decision before we spend a lot more electronic bits on this.